- Hello, and welcome to this live special edition of 10 Thirty Six here on Milwaukee PBS.

I'm your host Portia Young.

Lead and Our Health.

Over the next hour we hope to provide comprehensive information to help you understand the problem that we're facing.

Lead in our water, in our homes, and in our environment.

We have information to help you protect yourself and your families from the effects of lead.

Health and lead experts are joining us tonight on the phones and in our studio to help sort it all out.

Now you have two ways to ask questions tonight.

We have a phone bank with medical and lead experts from Children's Hospital, Aurora Health Care, and the 16th Street Community Health Centers.

If you are watching us live tonight, please call us 414 297 6081.

Call with your questions.

You can also ask questions by going to Milwaukee PBS on Facebook.

Our experts will try to answer as many questions as possible in this hour.

Now the problem of lead in paint has been around for a very long time.

The work to protect residents and clean up that problems continues.

Now more recently, the focus has turned to our drinking water and the large number of lead pipes in our city and older suburbs and in our homes.

Veteran journalist Mark Siegrist looks at what we're facing and whether the efforts to stop the problem from getting out of hand are good enough.

- Water, an essential resource for life itself.

- This water supply then goes through a treatment process.

- [Mark] Dr.

David Garman knows just how precious it is.

He's the son of a plumber.

And a leader in the Milwaukee-based Water Council, as well as founding dean of the UW Milwaukee School of Fresh Water Sciences.

He's keenly aware of a major threat to that resource hazardous lead and efforts to abate it.

How well are we doing it right now in our region, doctor.

- Not well enough, I believe.

We don't fully understand the actual exposure of some communities, who are exposed to lead.

And we really don't have a strong basis for you might call it, civic intervention to actually minimize the exposure to lead.

- [Mark] An environmental threat with us through the ages.

The industrial revolution, for example.

- Lead smelters were responsible for employing a lot of people, but the people who worked in those and lived around those areas are also exposed to large amounts of lead.

And there used to be clusters of people who would have neurological diseases or who died early.

- [Mark] In more recent years, an awareness heightened by the crisis in Flint, Michigan.

The nation's symbol for a water utility's worst case scenario.

Prompting Wisconsin to refocus its attention on the abatement of lead in our drinking water.

200,000 service lines in the state could potentially be affected.

And in the removal of aging household lead paint.

- It is a serious threat.

- [Mark] Veteran journalist Dee Hall is passionate about the health dangers of lead.

Hall is managing at a veteran co-founder of the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism.

- We've discovered that this is an unresolved problem that has not been well recognized by by policymakers, and even the public.

- The UW Madison non-profit has made the issue a priority.

Its online publication, wisconsinwatch.org has become a primary resource of record.

Detailing the extent, accountability, and response of the Wisconsin lead issue.

- [Woman] Studies have linked even small amounts of lead to behavior problems in children, inability to do well in school and even future criminality among people who have been lead poisoned.

- [Mark] Among the wisconsinwatch.org findings, statewide 4.5% of children tested were found to be lead poisoned in 2014.

Blood lead levels of five micrograms per deciliter of lead means the child has been lead poisoned.

In Milwaukee, 8.6% of children tested had blood lead levels at or above the level that indicates lead poisoning in 2014.

The state's Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program remains 23% smaller than it was in 2011.

State law does not mandate the drinking water be investigated as the source when a child is found to have lead poisoning.

- Experts who work in this field will say, get the lead out.

Get rid of the lead service lines.

Get rid of the lead fixtures that you might still have in your home, brass has a lot of lead in it.

And increase the requirements for testing.

- [Narrator] See your family doctor to have your child's lead levels tested.

Since young children are the most affected, it's very important to have them tested three times before the age of three.

- [Mark] It's called, Lead-Safe Milwaukee.

On February 3rd, mayor Tom Barrett and other civic leaders gathered at Moody Park Pavilion.

The kickoff to a public awareness campaign emphasizing basis prevention.

From wiping down old paint dust, to proper use of the tap water, and childhood testing.

- Let the water run when you get up in the morning, or if the water has been sitting in the pipes let the water run for three minutes.

Wait 'til it's cold.

- We know that the impacts of lead, even low levels of exposure, during those developing years, can last a lifetime.

- [Mark] Health officials further noted that higher blood lead levels among Milwaukee children have actually declined since 1997.

But there's still reason for concern.

- The cornerstone of public health is to prevent disease before it happens and that's what this campaign is all about.

- [Mark] And as for the long-term vision of citywide lead service pipe replacement, mayor Barrett says that has not changed.

- Our plan is to replace all of it, but again, this is going to take many years.

But you can see that we've implemented a path, and we're going to have to find the resources.

- [Mark] A full replacement for a property involves a skillful day long procedure.

And this is just the beginning.

One of some 70,000 residential lead service lines in Milwaukee.

A long range vision with shared expenses.

Up to $1,600 for a property owners paying their share of the line.

Over a 10 year option.

Meanwhile, the city of Milwaukee's neighbors, with older housing stock of their own, are considering their options.

- You know, it's a problem that affects the system on many levels.

- [Mark] For now, the village of Shorewood is replacing lead laterals during water main upgrades, with or without homeowners changing their side of the line.

- I'm hopeful that those participation rates increase over last year, but you know, again, it's not an inexpensive process.

It's an investment.

- [Mark] And in the city of Wauwatosa, property owners are given a similar option.

- When we begin our cycle, we'll certainly be working with homeowners to recommend replacement be considered strongly on their side of the lateral.

- Trying to get a handle on a very complex issue that doesn't have a black or white answer.

The lead paint in older homes is much more of a concern for young children than the water issue with the lead pipes.

- [Mark] Mayor Ehley is not alone in that thinking.

- Lead hazard, lead paint still is the main source.

- [Mark] For two decades, Milwaukee Health Department has been focused on the dangers of lead paint.

- [Narrator] Because peeling, chipping, and cracking paint becomes small paint chips and dust inside a home.

- [Mark] Assisting families with medical testing, property assessment, and abatement itself.

- And we have dropped faster than any of the top 40 largest cities in terms of reducing the amount of lead hazards, but there's still more work to be done.

- [Mark] The public discourse in Wisconsin right now is largely concerned with drinking water.

And the city of Madison is considered a national model for getting the lead out.

- See how thick the wall is.

- [Mark] Madison Water Utility GM Tom Heikkinen says it wasn't easy.

- There was a lot of skepticism, even among some newspaper editorials that this was really needed that the cost would be too high.

- [Mark] Despite initial opposition, the utility won public favor, especially when promising to share the private end of cost.

- People gradually became aware that this wasn't gonna be so bad, and that there was plenty of time, I mean, that's the other thing, people had time to comply.

- [Mark] In 2001, Madison officially began digging for complete lead pipe replacement.

Laying more than 8,000 new service lines across the city.

An estimated $20 million public-private investment 11 years in the making.

- What advice would you give other policymakers across the state right now, dealing with this issue?

- We'd be happy to help you.

We've been through this before, it can be done.

- [Mark] Back in Milwaukee, Dr.

David Garman ponders how it can be done even better.

Emerging technology could be less costly and more efficient.

- Virtually, it would lead to the lead pipe being lined with a material which has a pipe within a pipe.

And this is, this is now being used in Europe, and it's been shown to be on a very large scale, it is now been shown to be very good, very effective.

- [Mark] But infrastructure isn't the only challenge.

Greater understanding of the human condition is just as important.

- [David] In the end, it really comes down just to looking at where people live, where they eat, and what the various exposures are.

- [Mark] So more in-depth research, more in-depth sampling and wider scope of sampling and analysis.

- Yes.

- [Mark] Protection of a precious resource water, and those who depend on it, isn't easy.

Threatened through the ages by another earthly resource lead.

- So much to talk about with this public health issue.

Joining me now is Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter, James Causey, who has examined this issue here on Black Nouveau and Milwaukee PBS.

And Bevan Baker, the Health Commissioner for the city of Milwaukee.

We do want to mention that we did invite Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, but he did have a scheduling conflict.

Thank you for joining us.

So our first question comes really, just, let's bottom line it, because how bad is lead for us?

And how do you even know if you've been exposed to it?

- Well, let's just say this.

There's no acceptable level of lead for the human body.

Just at that very ground floor level, lead is not good.

But there is perhaps one of the biggest modern day health crisis that we're facing here in our city, and our state and this nation.

Every living organism needs water to survive, so this is a big issue and it's one that we must get our hands around and it's gonna take us awhile to work through this.

- We've noticed it's a big issue, especially after what we witnessed in Flint, Michigan.

How close is Milwaukee to being like Flint, Michigan?

- I think we have the concerns that Flint has in terms of getting lead out of our systems, of delivering water to people in Milwaukee.

But we're not Flint.

Flint had some intentional mishaps in terms of how people were poisoned by lead.

We have infrastructure, we have an old age infrastructure, we have pipes in the ground that have been there for hundreds of years.

So we're not Flint, but we have some of the same concerns, and we need to be as aggressive as Flint and every other community in the nation that's faced with lead hazards.

- We did hear David Garban say in that piece for the Milwaukee Water Council that Milwaukee's not doing enough.

- I think we have to be clear about what we can do, what we should do and what the cost of doing those things are.

- I think we've been trying to get ahead of lead hazard for years.

We have a lead abatement program that we've been trying to get lead paint out of our system for many years and it's a model for most of the nation.

But water hazards, it's a different game and we have to do more, but we have to have a plan.

This is a long-term effort to rid lead from our water supply.

- When you talk about this long-term plan, what does that consist of?

- It consists of one, identifying those lead pipes that are in the ground and working with residents in our city and coming up with the infrastructure to be able to take it out.

It's very costly, but it can be done and I think we need to categorize and then strategize on what we do first.

We want to focus on babies, we're focused on daycares and child care centers, get those pipes out first, because lead can be most destructive to the smallest of us.

- Is it something we would have to make an appeal to federal, to the federal level?

- I think this is a global concern not just a federal concern.

Water is something that everyone on the planet needs, but we do need a federal, state and a local response to this.

We've seen a little, but it's not nearly enough, and I think Milwaukee needs to have our entire public health system join it, and working to get lead out of our systems.

- To me, the scary part is that Flint, the water in Flint is still not safe.

So that bothers me.

Does that concern you at all, especially when it comes to our concerns here?

- I think Flint was the virtual wakeup call for the whole public health system.

It pains me to know that residents of Michigan and particularly Flint, are going through this.

But it was the canary in the coalmine, it woke up the public health system to say, here's the problem.

Lead is in our water delivery systems all across this nation, Milwaukee just happens to be one of those cities that's trying to lean forward and do as much as we can.

There's so much more to get done.

I'm not satisfied.

I will never be satisfied until we can rid lead hazard from our water delivery system.

- [Portia] All right, thank you, Commissioner Baker.

Thank you, James, we're gonna check back in with both of you in just a few moments.

So the question of what to do is something that many families face.

WUWM environmental reporter Susan Bence introduces us to a family whose young son ended up with high blood lead levels.

They had to make a big change in their lives, which wasn't easy.

- Now let's make it into something fun.

- [Susan] Dana Reeder welcomed us into their bay view flat that he shares with his wife and their six-year-old son Matt.

Reeder says his son has a lot of interests, drawing, playing Battleship and Matt loves school.

But when he was one-year-old, his parents weren't sure how he would do.

Matt's pediatrician tested him for lead exposure.

At the time up to 10 micrograms per deciliter was considered okay but Matt tested at 11.

At the time the young family was living in the Washington Heights neighborhood, the Milwaukee Health Department stepped in to assist.

- [Dana] He just took samples, if I remember correctly, he came back took some samples from outside some in the windowsill.

And then then he left.

After that, you know, and he just gave us a few pamphlets about what we can do, how to look into it, like, lead abaters, or something of that nature.

And at the same time, we sheared that information with our landlord.

- [Susan] The landlord was not cooperative.

Reeder says in the meantime.

- Our son's levels, we were getting testing and I think it started, it didn't really go down and we were hoping it did.

And so I think at that point, we were kinda getting furious, a little mad about it, You know, because we're staying here, we're paying rent, and you know, he's not really doing anything.

- [Susan] Reeder confronted the landlord, saying he'd share his family's story with the press.

Reeder was able to get out of their lease andthey moved.

He worries about families who aren't as lucky.

- [Dana] It's just hard, and they can claim ignorance and chances are, if you don't got money to fight it or go the distance, you're not gonna win your case, and it's not like they're gonna throw him in jail for it or anything like that.

So the one thing you can do is educate yourself and then publicly go out and tell people your story.

Because it's happening to dozens, hundreds of people.

Especially in the city where Milwaukee where the water is affected by lead, not only that, two, people should be concerned about their house and the neighborhood that they live in because the paint is affecting you and your children.

The stuff that's inside your house is just as lethal as what you're drinking and what's inside of the pipes too.

- [Susan] It was pediatrician David Rosenburg who detected elevated lead in young Matt Reeder's blood.

Rosenburg has been practicing medicine for over 40 years and tests all of his patients for lead at age one.

- They did studies and figured out that it was kids having problems that weren't acute.

And later on, maybe, attention deficit problems and learning problems, things like that.

Lead's toxic to the brain, and when you're zero to three-years-old, that's when it affects you most.

- [Susan] Rosenburg says regular testing of young children is critical.

Had he not alerted Matt Reeder's parents when he was one-years-old, Matt's levels might have risen even higher.

- Oh it probably would have, because we wouldn't have left that house, they have been still exposed to the lead paint.

- Dana Reeder and his family aren't taking any lead chances, these days.

They buy water by the gallon at the store to further reduce their risk from exposure.

Not long after Matt Reeder was first tested for lead, the CDC ratcheted down the childhood exposure levels from 10 micrograms per deciliter to five.

But the CDC is quick to add, there is no safe level of lead in children.

- Yes, yes.

- Now Susan Bence joins us along with Carmen Reinmund from the 16th Street Community Health Centers who deals a lot with families and this issue.

Thank you for being with us.

First of all, Susan, when the Reeders moved into their new home, they didn't take chances, they did some their own lead testing.

- Absolutely.

They went straight to Wal-Mart, they said got aa a simple test to check at home, sort of a Q-tip deal, that has the chemical on it and if it changes color, you know there's lead.

There was lead, but the landlord was very cooperative and before they moved in, painted, took care of everything, they tested again and then knew that they were safe and moved in.

- [Portia] Wow.

And Carmen, you do a lot of home visits, and you've seen a lot of this issue with lead.

What is something that parents and families should be looking for?

- Parents should be looking for paint that is peeling, that is cracking, and that is breaking into little pieces.

Because that's how you can identify the lead-based paint and just assume whatever paint that you see on the windows, on the porch, not just your home, but also the places where you bring your children, to some family members to watch this children, make sure that you are looking around for some of these characteristics of lead-based paint.

- [Portia] And the problem is, little ones they put everything in their mouths.

I have a 19-month-old and she was eating, I don't know what this afternoon, and that's the issue, right, that's what you see with children?

- Yes.

Children tends to put everything in their mouth, lead paint chips, are sweet, so children have this philosophy that if it's sweet, it's good, I could have it.

So the children are going to find the lead before the parents.

We need to be proactive, and look out for this paint before the children get lead poisoning.

- And Susan, landlords in the city, sometimes they are not always following the rules and they're part of the problem with this lead abatement.

What can the city do about that responsibility, it's like a two-pronged issue?

- There's measures in place but certainly Carmen has certainly seen on the ground, the problems.

But when the child tests at 20 micrograms per deciliter or higher at that 20 level, then they step in immediately, there's an inspection, there's a nurse who comes in, begins to work with the family.

The landlord needs to make that change, but if they don't act in a reasonable amount of time, there's a fine associated with it and the fine can continue.

But I'm told that right now, the Health Department is monitoring 150 families, and about a third of those are situations where the landlords are not cooperating, so this is a big issue.

- So when you run in to that situation where your landlord doesn't cooperate, what can you do?

- Well, it's something that Carmen talked to me about, What she's experienced.

- Usually property owners are going to respond to the city, like you know, they are like, not trusting the city, when someone else from an organization comes in, and talk to them, and give them the choice.

You know, you could work with me, and I can refer you to a class, if you can afford a certified contractor, I could, you know, the city has a subcontract with the clinic.

We send them to a class, so they can learn how to do the work themself.

- [Portia] All right.

Thank you, Carmen, we are all out of time right now, but hold that thought, again, we're trying to answer as many questions as we possibly can.

We want to get to Mark Siegrist, He is in our phone bank right now with our volunteers.

Mark, what are people asking right now?

- It warms my heart to overhear some of these conversations going on here in Studio B, folks calling up asking our experts from various health organizations, various outreach workers how to identify potential lead problems within their households.

Preventive measures as the mayor says, just run that cold water for three minutes in the morning to get it going.

Sometimes, good medicine is good listening, Dr.

Wehby.

Dr.

David Wehby is with us from Aurora Health Care, he is one of the fine volunteers.

It really does mean good listening, doesn't it.

- Absolutely.

Communication is the key in any type of relationship, specifically with your health care provider.

- When families come into your examining room with children looking for advice and identifying problems, what do you need to know?

- The most important thing is to have those regular checkups with your provider, as part of the normal evaluation process, you're gonna get some blood levels checked at a very early age, before age three.

That combined with the developmental evaluation that the provider will do to make sure they're hitting their developmental milestones appropriately.

And if there is a delay identified, then it's important to have the evaluation or have those lead levels available to determine if that was the cause and if it did seem to be part of the cause itself, it's important to intervene as early as possible to try to limit the further exposure at that point.

- Dr.

Wehby, thank you so much.

We're also being helped in the studio with representatives of Children's Hospital and 16th Street Community Health Centers, We're grateful for that.

If you're watching us live, our number is 297 6081.

Portia, back to you.

- Thank you very much, Mark.

We're gonna check back in in just a few moments.

We're also taking your questions on Facebook.

Just find Milwaukee PBS on Facebook.

We'll check on those questions in just a few moments.

Right now though we want to take a closer look at what you can do in your own home to combat the lead problem in your drinking water.

- [Woman] You probably get a drink and never think about how the water makes its way into your glass.

But Jesse Cannizaro does.

Not only does she own this rental home in Wauwatosa near 63rd and Meinecke, she is is a master plumber.

- I'll be honest, I have a lead service in my home.

I don't plan on replacing that in the immediate future, but I will say it's something I've been thinking a lot about and I know it will need to be replaced.

- [Woman] If your home was built before 1950, there's a good chance you a lead service line bringing water to your home.

To know for sure, if you live in the city of Milwaukee, there's a website where you can type in your address to find out about your water service.

- Most homeowners will look at me and they'll go, what is that, so they don't know what it is, they don't know what it looks like, and if they do know where it is, more often than not, they don't know what all of the different components of it are.

- [Woman] Time to be educated.

- [Jesse] The easiest thing to identify and find is going to be the water meter, which is usually gonna be black in color, sometimes they're a different color.

It may noy be quite as bulky, but if a homeowner can find out where this is located, they'll be able to figure out where the service is.

To the street to this point is called the water service.

From this point into the house, we technically call it water distribution piping.

What you're gonna look for is a pipe that goes underground, it's not going up the way this pipe is.

This goes underground, travels out to the street.

Looking at this grayish color there's some nicks inside of it, paint on it for many many years.

You see this grayish color though, this is lead, it's not gonna be a copper color like a copper pipe, it's gonna be a gray.

- [Woman] If you're still not sure if you lead pipes, zero in on the valve, usually to the left of the water meter.

- This is the number one tell.

When you see this older style of shutoff that's got the little slot, this style of valve is prone to leaking, you'll actually see, there's a little bit of white on the ground there from where it's leaking in some of the minerals have been left behind and just touching gently on the bottom of this pipe, I've got a little bit of water there.

- [Woman] The other tell you a lead service pipe is the bulb shape before the valve.

- [Jesse] It's 80 to 100 years old in this home and it's gonna likely be an issue.

- [Woman] Which means if the valve breaks or the service pipe bursts, then you'll have to pay for new pipes.

- This is what we call polip.E.

We'll call it HPD.

It's a different type of plastic tubing.

It's not always going to be blue, sometimes you're gonna see it in black.

We don't see this inside of the Milwaukee area, Milwaukee actually prefers to have copper run into homes.

So you're not gonna see this as often but we do see it out in the western Wakashaw areas it's very very typical.

- [Woman] And means there's no lead.

Plus, to make it easy to tell if a home has new plumbing, look for the letters NL, stamped on the valve.

- [Jesse] That's how we tell that this fitting has been made, there's no lead inside of it, it stands for no lead.

- [Woman] Let's say nothing's gone wrong with your lead pipes and you don't need to replace them yet.

You have some options to make sure your drinking water is safe.

First, check with Wisconsin's Department of Natural Resources to see if your municipality offers water testing.

Usually, it's cheaper than the test and lab results you pay for at your hardware store.

If you don't want to pay for the test and don't want to take any chances, then your next step is to buy a water filter.

- This is the filter units, this is the extra you'll change every six months.

And a sticker to remind you when to change it.

- Last November, Aquasauna, the city of Milwaukee, and the United Way partnered to give out free water filtration systems.

Brad Forster is the director of sales store Aquasauna, a water filtration company, recently bought by Milwaukee's AO Smith Corporation.

He says you need to look for the NSF Label number 53, verifying the product filters out lead.

- NSF is a third-party testing laboratory that is impartial and really sets the gold standard for other companies to follow.

They do the most rigorous testing.

- [Woman] To make it simple, NSF has a search engine on its website to see if the water filter you're considering qualifies for reducing lead.

You have several filter models to choose from, like the simple water bottle.

- It's filtering out 99% of the lead, along with chlorine, bacteria, and cysts in the water that could be common for those public areas like drinking fountains.

- [Woman] At home, you could use a pitcher system, but remember to look for the NSF 53 label.

- [Brad] It's filtering the water from the reservoir through the carbon blocks and then filling the outside of the reservoir with the clean filtered water that's now safe to drink.

- [Woman] There are point of views countertop models.

- You just simply take the top, screw it on.

- [Woman] And under the counter models too, with both, you'll see a difference in water pressure, because it takes time for the water to be clean.

- Regular flouride in the house is gonna be about seven to 10 gallons per minute, hooked up to our under counter water filtration system.

A half gallon per minute.

Water's in contact with the media long enough to remove the harmful contaminants.

- [Woman] The prices for these products range from $30 for the water bottle, $150 for the pitcher, to $500 for the under the counter unit.

However, Aquasauna is offering on its website 60% off if you use the discount code "Milwaukee."

- We do want to mention that there are some added costs involved with most filters, because you have to replace the actual filter part every six months, so keep that in mind when you're budgeting.

We also want to point out that the city's next round of water filter giveaways will be done through agencies that work directly with the most affected population, low income families with the lead service line and children under the age of six living in the home or if a woman is pregnant or breast feeding.

We do have another message and it comes from Milwaukee's Hunger Task Force.

We tagged along with the Hunger Task Force dietician during a recent trip to the grocery store to hear what it's all about.

- One of the things that we're really passionate about at Hunger Task Force is making sure that families know when they're in their grocery store what foods to purchase to help mitigate or lessen the effects or any potential effects that lead may have in your body.

- [Woman] Angela Forster and daughter Nora got more than they bargained for during a recent trip to the grocery store, they met up with Hunger Task Force dietician, Lauren Haska.

- We have in the Washington Height neighborhood.

So the houses there are very old, our's in particular is over 100 years old.

So I have concerns, especially since having Nora, with sort of potential of lead in our water supply.

- I see.

So one simplest things that you can do is to make sure that you're providing your family healthy and nutritious meals and snacks.

Now, in doing so, there are three key nutrients that we want to emphasize within those meals and snacks, because these three nutrients are known to help mitigate or lessen the effects of lead in the body.

- Okay.

- So one of those nutrients is Vitamin C. Do you like oranges?

- She loves oranges.

- So we want to focus on consuming good sources of Vitamin C, like oranges, or even red bell peppers, or tomatoes.

Because Vitamin C actually can increase iron absorption in the body, which blocks lead absorption in the body.

Let's take a stop right here at the broccoli.

Broccoli is a great piece of produce to work with.

Does Nora like broccoli too?

- Not particularly, unless it's in a pouch.

Does that count if it's pureed and mixed with other ingredients.

- Broccoli is awesome, because it has that Vitamin C that we were just talking about a little bit ago.

And it also is a great source of calcium.

So when people think of calcium, a lot of the time they think of dairy foods, which are great sources of calcium.

But broccoli also has a lot of that calcium and calcium actually decreases the lead absorption in your body, as well.

- Truthfully, I did not even know there were foods that I could consume that would help pull that lead out of me if there was some in there, so I've definitely learned a lot.

- [Woman] The Hunger Task Force hopes more parents like Angela hears their lessen.

- [Woman] Well fed means less lead.

A hungry stomach absorbs lead faster, so children that are well fed are less likely to absorb lead, so we're encouraging parents to make sure there's milk at every meal.

We're encouraging kids to go to school on time so that they can have breakfast, Either in the classroom or the cafeteria.

We are encouraging people to use all of the federal nutrition programs.

It makes sure that kids are well fed.

We are now taking to labeling the tops of our infant formula, with a message that well fed means less lead and encouraging people to only use bottled water when they're mixing their infant formula.

That way they don't have to worry about whether or not theor water is safe and whether or not there is lead in the water when they're mixing the formula and as a result, exposing an infant.

- [Woman] Infants are the ones Sherrie Tussler hopes will soon get tested for lead.

- We here in the city of Milwaukee as across most of the US we test kids after their 12 months and up until age three.

But we are really not testing those infants and so we should be super thoughtful about exposure involving infants, and particularly, infant formula, if that's what we're choosing to use.

And if we're nursing, moms should also be drinking bottled water.

This is an issue of anybody who's living in an older home, so you could be very well off and live in a Wauwatosa in an older beautiful home and still have a problem with lead in your water.

We're thinking before about paint, but we also need to think about water and we need to think about soil.

Lead is a toxic substance, and no level of lead is appropriate for anyone no ingest.

But it can have some pretty potent effects on children, and infants while they're developing.

Harming their kidneys, their liver, their brain development.

And it's also toxic for adults.

- [Woman] Mom Angela Forster says her daughter has been tested and is fine but still pays close attention to the water they drink.

- We just buy jugged water, bottled water and we give her purified drinking water.

Brad and I drink a lot of water, so we just use the tap water but we run our tap for the full three minutes until it's really, really icy cold.

My husband had learned that recently that that would help if there was any lead in our pipes.

The whole deal in Michigan sort of got people thinking about lead, it got myself thinking about it a little bit more.

- The USDA contacted the Hunger Task Force, they are the federal agency that we work with.

They learned a lot of lessons in Flint, Michigan and what they learned from Flint was that their nutrition programs could make a difference in the lives of Flint residents who were exposed to heavy levels of lead in their water.

Milwaukee's lead problem is actually twice as bad as Flint, Michigan's.

We have more than 70,000 households affected with those lead pipes and laterals and we have no sense of urgency, I think, that Flint had around correcting the problem.

The EPA, the CDC, the USDA, they were all in Flint working to resolve those problems, and here in Milwaukee, we're going, ah, maybe not as bad of a problem, and we should be super aware that this problem really is twice that of Flint.

I think this is a public health crisis.

I think that we should be concerned.

When it happened in Flint, it became a crisis.

We heard about it here in Milwaukee.

Nobody is hearing about Milwaukee's crisis.

Including the people who live in Milwaukee.

- I probably haven't done my due diligence to do enough research.

I could certainly do more.

And I think that it would be helpful, if there wrtr just more resources out in the community.

Bye bye.

- [Woman] Information, parents like Angela hope will help make healthy choices for their families.

- Bye bye.

- Joining us now are Dr.

Pat McManus from the Black Health Coalition and Dr.

Heather Paradis, pediatrician and medical director for Community Service at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin.

So let's just start with the testing issue.

You heard Sherrie Tussler say that infants should be tested for lead.

Should they, Dr.

Paradis?

- Thank you for that question.

As pediatric health professionals, certainly we advocate for testing children at a young age for lead exposure.

And usually that starts around 12 months of age, when children are beginning to learn their period of highest language acquisition, as well as those hand to mouth behaviors that oftentimes exposes them to lead.

Any time that a parent comes to a health professional with a specific concern, I would hope that they are receptive and responsive to that.

A time when we would especially think about testing an infant is if we knew that that mother had been tested during pregnancy, and tested high.

- [Porti] All right, okay.

So what about the lead diet that you saw them talking about in that piece, can you eat your way out of lead poisoning?

- I don't think so.

- No.

- No.

It sounds good, people should eat healthy and well, but it, to me, when you match that with especially the most at-risk populations, you know they're not doing that.

So I get a little concerned about you know, just saying that this is kind of a wonder drug, that this is going to make things work.

- [Portia] I think what she was also saying is that if you're not as hungry, then the lead doesn't absorb as quickly into your system.

Is that fair?

- Well, but she's talking about not as hungry, but eating specific things that are rich in Vitamin C, rich in iron, calcium.

Because calcium exchanges.

You can be not hungry and not eat well.

- [Portia] Right, right.

- So I just think that it's I'm always happy for encouraging people to eat healthy.

I'm just concerned about not letting people think that's one panacea and they don't need to do the other things, like making sure that they're testing their water, making sure that the kids are getting tested.

I've been going on with saying I think women of child bearing age ought to be tested not just when they get pregnant.

Because you've got somewhere from six to 12 weeks many times, women don't even know they're pregnant, so all of a sudden, just start testing when they're pregnant.

Why don't we check, but it's the thing you get to the money, right?

Oh, that's a lot of money to test, but I just think, you go from six, then you stop and then in between time, do you wait until they're pregnant?

It begins to look at from a public health standpoint, to me, it looks at picking winners and losers and I think that's always a problem.

- As we close here, is Milwaukee doing enough to combat the problem?

- No.

I'm willing to say that.

They're doing some things, but I still think if it wasn't if these laterals weren't in certain parts of the community, if there were other parts of the community, they would be doing more.

Our community tends to be, do what they have to do, but what's politically expedient to get done.

But I think you got people who can do it for themselves, but the ones who can't, they don't really get the help and when you're looking at somebody talking about 30 and 40 years to replace all these laterals, right.

And then how many kids are being exposed and become adults when it's been proven back in the '90s that you can have a lot of the abhorrent behavior, the violence that goes on.

I'm not gonna say violence goes on and relates to that, but anybody says anything.

But I do think that when you drag that on but you see other things occurring in the community, you know, good, they can go watch the bucks, put money there other places.

And also, waiting until it's five milliliters, it should be no lead, period.

- [Portia] Thank you, Dr.

McManus, thank you Dr.

Paradis for your time.

And again, we'll be keeping your thoughts and calling on your expertise later on.

So thank you.

We want to get some questions.

As many questions as possible.

We have some on our Facebook page, just go to Milwaukee PBS or you can just call the phone bank.

Let check back in with our phone bank.

Mark Siegrist is there with some lead experts and our health experts.

Mark, what are you hearing at this hour?

- Well, we just got an interesting question from a Milwaukee area caller wanting to know if they should be concerned about watering their garden their household garden.

And the answer in short is, just make sure the produce that you're growing in your backyard is washed thoroughly.

and you should be okay.

Rita Higgins is among our wonderful experts here, she represents Children's Hospital, you're a long-time practicing nurse, you work with children all the time.

How do you ease their concerns Rita when they come in, for an evaluation, for a clinical test, perhaps when it's suspected that they have been exposed to higher levels of lead?

- I think any time you're dealing with children, you first must make sure that you don't make them feel like they have done anything wrong.

If they feel like their answer is going to make them get in trouble, they may not be honest with you about what they maybe have been doing in the house.

You know, have they been playing in the window, have they picked up some paint and eaten it.

So I think you really have to make sure that they don't feel threatened by however they answer you, so that you can get honest answers.

I think that the other thing you have to do is make sure you use words that they understand.

If you use big words with children, they tend to get little bit scared because big words are scary for them.

So instead of using words like ingest, make sure we use everyday terms like did you eat, did you put something in your mouth so that we can make sure we're coming down to their level.

- Rita, thank you so much for your fine work.

- Thank you.

- We appreciate it.

The number again if you're watching us live, 297 6081.

Portia, back to you.

- [Portia] Thank you very much, Mark.

Let's check back in with Mark later on in the program.

We have our panel back again.

the health commissioner of Milwaukee, Bevan Baker, Dr.

Heather Paradis from Children's Hospital and again Carmen Reinmund from the 16th Street Community Health Centers.

So our first question comes from Kara Von, I believe.

So they say if lead has been a known issue for this long back to paint chips, then why is it only now coming vaguely, to public light?

Why hasn't there been a stronger push for this issue?

Commissioner Baker?

- Well, I think you have to follow policy.

I mean, it was 1978 was the year that lead paint legislation at the federal level banned certain things where we see lead in certain products.

And if you go back before that, there was standards that were set, but we're this is all evolving.

The Environmental Protection Agency has made some types of advances, the CDC has made some types of advances.

We know more, we do more, but this has not been an issue that public health hasn't known about, but it's been some of the policies we've tried to follow.

- I'll ask Dr.

Paradis this question.

How harmful is lead exposure for someone like me, this question again, coming from our Facebook page for somebody with a compromised immune system.

- That's a great question.

Certainly I would encourage that person to talk to their own health provider and if they haven't been tested for lead to consider the pros and cons of doing so.

- [Portia] All right, and let's get to our last question this one's coming from Paul on our Facebook page.

So lead can get through the skin through touching lead paint, showering, or bathing.

Because we're so concerned about lead in the water can you get it through absorption of the skin?

- There's two ways that lead is gonna go into your body and one is if you inhale the dust, or you eat paint chips, or you are drinking this constantly water all day.

- [Portia] Okay, Carmen Reinmund, Dr.

Paradis, Commission Baker, thank you very much.

Okay again, we have many many more questions to get to and we will do that as the night goes on.

Right now, we do want to get to more questions, again, we're talking about bones, and bone density.

You can talk about how lead impacts your bones and particularly, in women for this issue.

Let's get to 10 Thirty Six's Joanne Williams.

- Here we are.

- [Joanne] Denise Drum didn't know she had high levels of lead in her blood until she got curious.

- I like to understand the sciences and I like to understand my body and so through the years, talking to different doctors, we learn different things.

And I have a curiosity, so I wanted to take some tests to see where my body stands, because we are able to grow older.

And I want to be wiser as I grow older, and take care of my internal body, as well as the outside.

- [Joanne] So about three years ago, Denise had some blood tests evaluated at Waukesha Memorial Hospital, and found that the level of lead in her system was higher than normal.

She had no symptoms, she didn't feel bad, but she wanted to know more.

Did you feel differently or something?

- I wouldn't know if I could put my finger on it that way.

But wishing that I had more energy and not feeling quite as tired and just wanting to have a better overall sense of who I am.

I remember when I was in high school, and how it felt and what kind of energies they were.

So now that I'm older, I'm in my 60's, I want to retain energy.

- Most people in this instance, don't really feel bad.

They never felt bad before they got tested and they don't really feel bad after.

And it's not this is a-ha moment like wow.

I've got all this great energy now that I've done this.

They don't really notice much.

What they're more interested in is did their bone mineral density testing change.

- [Joanne] Debra Muth is a naturopathic practitioner at the Serenity Health Center in Waukesha.

To reduce the levels of lead in their bones, Muth gives people like Denise what's called Chelation Therapy.

They are injected with a substance called EDTA, ethylenediaminetetracetic acid.

It binds to the lead in bones and flushes it out through urine.

- It takes a while, it's not a quick treatment.

You're looking at probably a good six to 12 months minimum.

We repeat that bone mineral density testing and if we've seen improvement, we know we've made a big difference.

- [Joanne] As we get older, women and men lose bone mass, it becomes harder for the spine to support the body and it begins to curve.

- That white line down the middle of the table, try to align your body with that.

Watch your head as you lean down here.

- [Joanne] To find out if osteoporosis is thinning the bones, you get a bone density test like the one I got at Aurora Sinai.

- [Man] For the density of the back.

- I'm good.

If the composition of our bones gets thinner, lead can creep in and then stay there.

Dr.

Bakul Valika is an endocrinologist at Aurora West Allis Medical Center.

- As a young adult, with those type of exposures, even small levels of exposure, lead actually can deposits into the bone.

So lead actually acts like calcium for the bone matrix.

And bone becomes a repository for lead.

90% to 95% of lead can be retained in the bone.

- [Joanne] We can get lead from industrial areas, the paint in some ceramic dishes, some foreign cosmetics, and sometimes, from the dirt.

- [Bakul] Over time, you can get lead accumulation.

And then as an adult, if you are susceptible to disease processes, such as osteoporosis, which are disease processes that thin out your bone matrix, suddenly small amounts of exposure can lead to more higher lead exposure at one time.

And those are the effects that we see, that lead exposure that can turn into lead toxicity as an adult, can actually turn into chronic health issues.

Hypertension, muscle aches, joint aches, those are some of the symptoms that, as an adult, one can get, if you do have lead toxicity.

- [Joanne] Since you had the therapy, do you have more energy?

- I think that's slowly coming back.

- [Joanne] And Dr.

Valika says there is something you can do to protect your bones from osteoporosis.

- There's been good research with sort of things that we've discussed, like calcium supplementation, making sure that lead is not incorporated into the other systems, because blood lead is half life is only about 36 days.

But bone lead's half life can be up to 20 years.

- Dr.

John Brill, who practices family medicine at Aurora Health Care joins us now to discuss this just a bit further.

So Dr.

Brill, thank you for being with us this evening.

Now all of us probably have some level of lead in our bodies, so what should be the biggest concern, is it the bone density issue?

- We worry about the bones because that's where most of the lead is stored in our bodies.

But we also worry about other problems that could include memory loss, high blood pressure, kidney problems, tremor.

So we know that lead affects every system in the body, including the nervous system as well as the bones and our endocrine systems.

- [Portia] And that's the thing, It's such an insidious thing.

What can you even do about that?

- I think the best treatment is prevention.

Lead accumulates in our bodies over our lifetime, so we want to do as much to protect our children and ourselves as we can, as other people have mentioned.

Letting the water run through the pipes before drinking or cooking.

We think cooking actually may have be even slightly worse than drinking water, because the water is more concentrated in that.

Also, in the case of bones, as Dr.

Valika said, getting lots of exercise, making sure we're getting enough calcium to protect the bones from the effects of lead.

- [Portia] Last question for you, Dr.

Brill, what about lead in the brain, you did mention it briefly, but does it cause things like dementia.

- We're not sure.

There's a association, so people that have high blood levels in their bones also tend to experience some memory loss.

But we're not sure if it's related to other factors that could cause both of those things, for example, growing up in an impoverished environment.

There's also been some interesting studies that have shown moon shine whiskey has a lot of lead in it.

Of course, we wouldn't recommend that as being good for your brain in any case.

- [Portia] Exactly.

All right, thank you Dr.

Brill for being with us this evening.

We're gonna check back in with our volunteers and our phone bank with our veteran reporter, Mark Siegrist.

I know he's been getting lots of questions and a very active phone bank this evening Mark.

- It's been very active Portia.

Alejandra Hernandez, from 16th Street Community Center, they do wonderful work there reaching out to the community.

Language is often a barrier Alejandra, in explaining this lead issue.

In translation, how do you simplify so that everyone understands it clearly?

- So when we provide lead education, we just have to keep it down to the basics, what is lead, how it gets into the body and what families can do to prevent more lead exposure, and to lower the lead levels in the child.

- And oftentimes when someone calls 16th Street, you're the first health contact for people.

- Yes and we go door to door in the summer to be able to reach out to those people who don't have primary care doctors, so it's very essential.

Alex, thank you so much.

We appreciate your hard work.

Also being helped out tonight from Children's Hospital, Aurora Health Care Centers, 16th Street.

Our number is 297 if you're watching us live, 297 6081.

Now remember the number, back to you Portia.

- All right, thank you very much Mark.

Our volunteers again, they're gonna continue to answer as many calls as possible even after our program ends tonight.

We have heard lots of information, great information this past hour from many different experts, those affected.

Lead in our health is something that we all must pay closer attention to and to try to take steps to combat the problem.

Commissioner of Health for Milwaukee, Bevan Baker joins us once again along with Dr.

Heather Paradis from Children's Hospital and once again, my colleague from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, James Causey who has reported on this issue for the city of Milwaukee.

So here, we only have a couple of minutes, but we do want to get some final thoughts and I'll start with you, Commissioner Baker.

- [Bevan] Well, this is a public health crisis of our lifetime.

We have to make the investments now to get the return on investment for the future of the city, future of the state, and the nation.

This is a concern yes.

But we need to come together as a community, as a state, and as a nation and make the investments now.

This will take some time.

It can be done, it should be done, and it's gonna give us the return on investment that we need.

Public health is everywhere.

It starts with the water.

- [Portia] Okay.

And you did say you wanted to, I guess, do some fact checking for yourself?

- [Bevan] I do thinks that we have to be careful when we say that there is one solution to an intractable problem.

And I think that while I'm always gonna be a supporter of having good nutrition, and doing certain things, we need to follow this science and I'll leave it there.

- [Portia] Okay.

Dr.

Paradis, what can parents do, I mean, they're watching this, they're seeing this, they have little ones, it's a big concern and a big worry for parents.

- Lead and its effects are real and they affect our young children the most, so we do have guidelines for testing.

And I would really encourage parents, in addition to encouraging proper nutrition, breastfeeding, enrollment in WIC and other food programs as eligible, getting the proper nutrition.

I would encourage testing early in life.

Three by age three.

I would hate to have though, a parent test a young infant and be improperly reassured by a negative result at that young of an age.

Because we know that children are most at-risk during those period of language acquisition.

- [James] For Bevan, this question is for you.

I think in order to move this forward, I think we have to, what is the city doing to make sure that people know that this is not just a Milwaukee problem, it's not just a poor people problem, but this is a statewide problem, this is a nationwide problem?

How is the city addressing that?

- [Bevan] Well, I think the first thing the city is doing is making whatever investments it can.

We're putting all of our efforts to making certain that our water supply is safe.

But I think we need a higher level of advocacy.

This is a public-private partnership.

It is government's role and private citizen's role.

Everyone needs to shout to the top of their lungs that we need safe, reliable water in our state, in our nation and that's just not the city of Milwaukee.

That's everyone.

- [James] Is the state doing that though?

- I think the state's at the table, but we need them to bring more.

And I think that this is something that shouldn't have to be asked for, it should be something that would be given to us without asking, but we need to advocate.

I'm happy to see the state at the table.

This needs more.

It is a fiscal note to this issue and maybe that's why there's some reluctance.

- [Portia] Right.

It's not an easy problem in solving.

There is no silver bullet, as you will.

So when you're talking to parents, the bottom line, when you're a homeowner, what should they do?

- Well, I think that every homeowner, every resident in our city, should get the facts.

You should find out what is the concern.

Do you live in a house that was prior to 1952.

Do you, are you in a house that has lead laterals, you can find these things out.

Be armed with information.

When in doubt, run the water.

When in doubt, go out and get filtration systems.

We can arm ourself with the information.

The public health system here is for that.

But parents are the best advocate for children, they're the best advocate for family members.

You have a voice.

And your voice needs to be heard by government, private industry, the whole public health system.

- [James] Commissioner, when you talk about the dollar amount, I keep hearing you say that this is gonna take a lot of money, but how much money are we talking about?

- [Bevan] Hundreds of millions of dollars and I think that with even when we look at best case scenario, we are talking decades to pull all of the pipes out of the ground.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't be done faster and doesn't mean that the money can't come sooner.

But it is an investment and long time ago, people made investments into public health.

The air that we breathe, the food that we eat, a lot of those things changed because people made some tough decisions.

- [James] Thanks a lot Bevan.

- [Portia] All right.

Thank you, commissioner Baker, Thank you James Causey, Dr.

Heather Paradis, thank you very much.

We do hope that this hour has been informative and helpful for you as we all try to deal with the issue of lead in our water and in many of our homes.

We again want to thank our guests for being with us this evening.

We have Dr.

Paradis, again.

Once again, Commissioner Baker, Dr, Brill, James Causey, Susan Bence, Mark Siegrist, it's been a really important hour.

We do hope you took a lot away from it.

We also want to thank our phone bank volunteers from Children's Hospital, Aurora Health Care, and the 16th Street Community Health Centers.

And thank you to everyone who helped us tell these informative, important stories for this evening.

If you need more information on lead and to watch this program again, another segment from it, just go to our website milwaukeePBS.org/lead.

Thank you so much for watching this special live edition of 10 Thirty Six Lead and Our Health.

10 Thirty Six returns next month Friday, April 21st at 7:30.

Stay well.

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