>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, Melissa Urban, co-founder and C.E.O.

of Whole30, known for her expertise in nutrition and wellness, shares her wisdom on the importance of setting boundaries in relationships.

We explore the hidden challenges, the benefits of setting boundaries, and we explore the practical strategies to distance yourself from those who don't respect your limits.

This episode will empower you to create healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

I'm so glad Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ You've been through divorce, remarriage.

You've been in different relationships.

You've been single for a period of time.

All these different things.

What would you say, after all this life experience, are the key boundaries we need to create in relationships before entering a relationship?

>> Oh, yeah.

So, like, there's almost a pre-step that you have to take that I spent almost four years doing before I got into my new marriage, which was spending time by myself, figuring out, after my divorce who I was again, because I feel like when you spend so much time in a relationship trying to make it work, you give away so many pieces of yourself that by the end of it, I didn't know who I was anymore.

I didn't recognize myself.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

My self-confidence, my sense of self -- I had, I think, chipped away so much at myself in an effort to make it work that it took me a while, I think, to get back to like, "Okay, what do I need?

What do I like doing?

What are the things that I haven't been doing that I want to get back to?

What are the things that I value?"

So I spent a lot of time by myself.

And when I was thinking about my new relationship, I came up with a list of non-negotiables.

There were a few things that I was like, "I will not be in a relationship without them."

>> What are those?

>> The first was that my family, my immediate family, has to like you.

Hard stuff.

>> [ Laughs ] >> I know that that sounds almost, like, intuitive, but I made a lot of excuses for past partners with the people that mattered to me the most, my sister being the most important one, where she was, like, seeing red flags before I was.

And I was kind of trying to bridge that gap.

And I was like, "I will not do that anymore.

If I show up and, you know, this person is not integrating well with my family, that is an immediate sign."

>> Because then there's going to be discord for the rest of your life or the rest of the time you're with that person, right?

Your family is going to be like, "I don't really want to spend time with this person."

Your partner is going to be feeling like, "Your family doesn't like me.

I don't want to hang out with them."

It's going to be this kind of discord, right?

>> And I know that my family is amazing.

They're healthy.

They don't have, you know, troubling or manipulative tactics.

Like, my family is a very healthy family unit where we can talk about problems now.

And so if my partner is not getting along with them, that's a big sign.

>> Okay.

That's number one.

>> I also said that I would never again make myself small for the sake of my relationship.

I would never again downplay the things I knew I was good at, the ambitions that I had, the things I wanted to pat myself on the back for.

I absolutely wanted a partner who was going to be supportive of all of that and encourage all of that in me.

So that was another non-negotiable.

>> Okay.

>> So, as I'm thinking about all of these things that I want for my new relationship, I had to take a step back and say, "Okay, how am I going to show up in this relationship and not bring my own baggage into it?

How am I going to make sure that the past is processed and I'm not carrying it forward and I'm not blaming my next partner for things that my old partner did?"

So I went back to therapy and spent a lot of time in therapy.

But one of the things I committed to in my new relationship that I guess is a boundary for me is that I committed to always saying what I meant and meaning what I said.

And I feel like that's not often the case in relationships.

There's a lot of back-and-forth between -- Especially with women.

We've been societally conditioned not to say what we mean.

We have to be coy about it.

We have to hint around it.

You, as my partner, have to guess how I'm feeling and interpret how I'm feeling and then do the right thing.

And then if you don't, I get mad at you for not doing the thing that you didn't know you needed to be doing.

>> It's exhausting.

>> It's exhausting and it leads to a lot of miscommunication.

So I decided to show up in this new relationship, and I said to my husband like, "I will say what I mean, and you know that you can trust that.

So when you say to me, 'Are you mad at me?

', I'm going to take a moment to think about it.

And if I say no, you can trust that.

You can trust that it has nothing to do with you and it's not about you.

Because if we had a problem, you would know it."

>> And you don't need to walk on eggshells trying to say, "When is she going to tell me what's really going on?"

>> Yes.

And if you say, "Hey, is it cool if I go to jiu-jitsu tonight?

", and I'm like, "Okay, I'm home.

I'm alone with the kid.

These are the things that I have going on."

And I think about it and I say, "Yep, it's cool," you know I mean it.

And you're not going to come home at 9:00 to, like, a...right?

>> Right.

Or resentment.

>> Or I'm like, "Why did you go?

And how could you leave me with this many -- you know, these many things?"

And then I also kind of said to him, "I'm expecting the same of you."

So I will not engage with passive-aggressive behavior.

If you walk around the house and you're stomping around and you're throwing things down, as far as I know, we don't have a problem, because you haven't told me that we have a problem.

>> Yeah, you've got something else going on in your life.

>> Yeah, I'm going to assume that it's not about me, because if it was about me, you would have told me or you would say, "I'm upset with you, but I'm not ready to talk about it.

Let's come back in a little while."

So it took us a while to learn to sort of trust that communication pattern with each other.

But it's been enormously helpful, and I would say it's the foundation -- It's, like, what I call our relationship golden rule.

It's the foundation for any boundaries that we set with each other, which is I'm going to take responsibility for my own needs and my own feelings.

I'm going to speak clearly and directly -- kindly, but clearly and directly about what I need from you.

And you can trust that I am going to say what I mean.

And it's been really huge for us.

>> Huge.

What's been the biggest -- You know, anytime we take on something new and we let go of the old pattern and we step into a new pattern, new behaviors, new stuff starts to come up or there might be moments of frustration or some PTSD feelings or "Aah, is it really going to work out?"

What has been the biggest breakdown that you've had to overcome in the last year and a half, two years, while taking on this new behavioral pattern?

>> Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it was a breakdown, because we worked around it, because we're married and we live together now.

But when he was talking about moving in with my son and I -- So my son and -- We bought -- My now-husband, and I bought a house, like, together.

We picked it out together.

It was big enough for all of us.

My son and I moved in on our own, and we wanted us to get settled in before we introduced Brandon into the household.

That was cool with everybody.

My son finally was like, "When's Brandon going to move in with us?"

And I was like, "Awesome.

We're in it."

When he started to move in, I had a huge freak-out.

A huge freak out, because, in the past, he would come to stay over and he'd stay for a night or two and I'd be like, "Okay, I needed an alone night."

And he would go back to his place, and I'd go back to my place.

And now, like, there's nowhere else for him to go.

>> There's no alone night.

>> No, there's no alone night.

And so I found that he would be hanging out, doing normal things around the house, existing as a human being, and I would be like, "Oh, my God, I can't stand -- I, like, need you to be out of this space.

I need you to do --" Like, it was intense.

>> This is like the first week, first month, first few months?

>> First week.

It was bad.

>> Oh, man!

>> It got bad.

It got bad to the point where he, like, went home.

He went to his old apartment and, like, slept on the floor for a night or two so I could figure it out.

So I called my therapist right away and I was like, "Okay, I want this to work.

I'm clearly still struggling with, like, energetic capacity and some old baggage, and I need to re-learn how to share my space and I need to re-learn how to communicate when I need alone time, but, like, I need to figure out how to have alone time together."

>> Right.

>> And then, you know, we worked it out.

>> And you started figuring it out, yeah.

Were you guys married at that time yet or not?

>> We weren't married yet.

I actually said to him -- I said to him at one point, "Do you think that we could get married but not live together?"

Like, that was, like, a real thing that I was wondering if we could do.

And he goes, "That would not work for me."

>> Wow.

>> Like, first of all, kudos to him for, like, being that clear.

He wasn't mad about it or he didn't stomp off.

He just said, "That would not work for me," and I was like, "Okay, well, I want to be married to this man."

>> So, why do you want to be married, but, at the time, you were like, "I want to live alone still"?

>> I just didn't know how I was going to be able to incorporate him into our life.

I had been living alone for five years, you know, with my kid -- >> It was familiar.

It was comfortable.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

And I felt -- It was just hard for me to share my space.

I'm so introverted and I really had to find ways to get that, like, alone time and recharge time with him in the house.

And we've definitely worked it out now, but there was a lot of communicating that had to go on in the beginning where I was like, "It's not you.

I love you.

I'm so happy that you're here.

And, also, I need an hour by myself so I can just, like, recharge my batteries.

I need alone time like most people need to breathe, and here's what it's going to look like.

And it's never about you.

And if I have to tell you before I leave the room every single day, 'Hey, it's not about you, but I need alone time,' I'm happy to do that," you know?

So it took a lot of communicating, and then he had to learn not to take it personally.

But, like, we both did that work, and now it's good.

>> What is the next level for you?

After you've gone through all this over the last couple years of unlearning and learning new things and -- What is the next level of peace, of harmony, and of love and joy for you?

>> Yeah.

I mean, I definitely still have some unpacking to do with my trauma.

Sexual assault at 16.

Family didn't handle it well.

I've spent decades in therapy unpacking it, and I feel like I've reached a really good place of, like, peace and comfort and forgiveness, especially for myself around it.

But there are still pieces of it that I struggle with.

And so, you know, I'm still in therapy relatively regularly, and once in a while, my therapist will be like, "Okay, you know we need to talk about this."

And I'm like, "I don't want to."

But I know I need to, right?

And it's like you said.

When you start to unpack something, it's like you're going to organize a closet, and the first thing you have to do is take everything out -- >> All the trash, all the junk.

>> Oh, it's such a mess before it gets better.

And that's kind of what it feels like.

But I've started that process.

I just need to, like, keep going through it.

>> Mm-hmm.

What do you think is available on the other side if you go through and face all the mess?

>> You're gonna make -- I mean, I'm going to tear up if I talk about it.

You know, a new relationship with certain family members that I am absolutely holding at a distance right now with what is a healthy boundary for me in the moment, because I don't feel safe enough to have deeper conversations right now because of the engagements that we've had in the past.

But what if we could open that up and I could have a deeper relationship and we could come to resolution and I could kind of be able to share some of the things that I want to share in a way that doesn't make me so scared, because their unhealed response then piles on me and is really -- >> It's triggering.

>> Well, what's it going to take for you to get there?

>> More therapy on my part, absolutely.

Honestly, the willingness to open those conversations.

Right now, I have certain things just in a box.

>> Right.

>> And it's comfortable with that box, you know?

It feels good.

I know where it is.

I know, if I want to open it, I can open it.

But, like, it's kind of easy not to, and the box has its nice little place in my life.

And it really requires, as my therapist keeps telling me, like, "We're going to have to open the box," right?

And you don't -- I don't have to.

I could keep doing things the way that I'm doing.

But, like, the universe is not subtle.

And there are definitely things where it's like, you know, poking me and prodding me like, "I think it's time."

>> When do you think -- when do you think you'll be ready to open it up?

>> Oh, I'll never be ready.

It's funny.

Like, I keep taking steps forward.

I went through this big journey where I started the process of re-parenting.

So, I don't know if you've gone through any of that yourself.

It was so intense for me.

I have -- >> Got a photo of my younger self on here, healing the inner child, re-parenting myself.

>> Yeah.

>> The different stages of my childhood.

>> Yes.

>> So, it started at 5, when I was sexually abused.

And so I had a photo on there for a year of my 5-year-old self.

Now it's the 10-to-12-year range, which I'm about to go into the 16-to-18-year range of all the different kind of deeper wounds that I never fully opened the box back to and mended and integrated the healing of.

So that's been -- My goal is to go from the youngest memories I have up until now.

And to work on all those stages psychologically, emotionally, the memories, and reintegrate love from this place as me being the parent to my younger self.

>> I'm getting, like, chills.

>> Yeah, so, for me, you know, I can relate to a lot of this because I know the suffering that can happen inside of someone when they hold on to that pain and when there's a wound that keeps triggering us without mending the wound.

So I can empathize and relate, based on my experience, to how that's felt and know it can be extremely painful.

It took me 25 years to face sexual abuse, talking about my own experience of that.

And for about a year and a half, two years, I would still tremble talking about it.

This was almost 10 years ago when I opened up.

Now I can speak about it without feeling painful, you know, without a wound, like, reopening, because it's -- I can speak about -- You know, not that it's a small thing to talk about, but I can speak about the memory and the experience from a place of I've done a lot of the healing work over the years.

I've spoken about it enough.

It doesn't scare me anymore to talk about it.

Doesn't mean I wish it would have happened, you know?

I wish it wouldn't have happened.

But I'm from a place of peace around the memory, and I've re-parented myself from that space, but it took me 25 years, and I suffered and I got a lot of results in my life.

This is what I think people don't understand is you were extremely successful before these last couple of years of healing, of therapy, and creating boundaries.

You didn't have certain boundaries, but you had this massive, you know, number-1 New York Times best-selling book and, you know, this massive audience.

You were extremely successful.

So you can still function and be successful, but there was -- You didn't have boundaries and you hadn't processed a lot, right?

>> Yeah.

Well, by the time I wrote my books, I was pretty decent at boundaries, especially around my -- >> With Whole30?

>> Yes, especially around my entrepreneuring, because I figured out super-fast, when I quit my full-time job -- >> But in your personal life.

>> Not, not as much.

>> That's what I'm saying.

You didn't have the boundaries in your personal life still.

>> Not as much.

I had some in some areas, right?

Around my drug addiction and recovery, really solid boundaries.

>> Sure.

>> But, no, not -- >> The relationships.

>> Yeah, relationships, especially with, like, you know, family, parents.

>> And you were still with getting results, which I think people can see that and be like, "Oh, she's got it all figured out."

>> Yeah.

>> And you were able to function at a high level and accomplish a lot, but there was still stuff inside of you that you were working through, right?

>> Definitely.

>> And that's why I asked you the question -- what do you think is available on the other side when you open the box?

At the right time for you.

I'm not trying to have you open it up this week or something, but when the time works for you, which you said may never be the right timing, what is available on the other side?

>> It's freedom.

It's literally freedom.

What is available on the other side is freedom, and that's really at the heart of my boundary practice.

I think so many people think that boundaries are about pushing people away or holding them at a distance or that they're controlling or manipulative.

Boundaries are a gift in your relationship.

Even in a relationship in which you are so close and so open and so vulnerable, like with my husband, we still have boundaries that are healthy for both of us.

>> 100%.

>> And so on the other side of, like, opening this box and exploring it will simply come a new set of boundaries.

And hopefully those boundaries have continued to expand our relationship and they continue to allow me to show up in a way that still feels good to me and safe to me.

And then, as that relationship progresses, hopefully I can back those boundaries off, because showing up all the time or most of the time feels good and safe.

That's what's on the other side of it.

It's really freedom.

>> Yeah, I think it's creating the freedom and it's not saying, "Okay, you can walk all over me and do whatever you want now" with friends or family or intimate loved ones.

It's creating a new boundaries in that space of freedom.

>> Correct.

Exactly.

>> You might still put people at a distance, but you feel like you have freedom from that relationship or from the past, right?

>> Yeah.

And it's not even distancing, right?

What it's essential-- I'm not distancing myself from my husband or from my son when I set a boundary.

What I am saying is "I have this need.

I have this feeling that I'm taking responsibility for.

And here is that limit.

Because you're not a mind reader, and I shouldn't expect you to know it.

And if you can meet me in this limit, then what you get is, like, a happier mom, a more patient mom, a more loving wife, a more, you know, romantic wife, somebody who can show up as her fullest self because I just had this, like, one small thing that I've asked you to do, that you've said you're willing to do for the good of our relationship and for my own health and safety," yeah.

>> Freedom.

How free do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being ultimate freedom, in these relationships that maybe you haven't opened the box yet?

>> I mean, I still would say like a 9.

>> Wow.

>> I do, and I think it's because I recognize that I am in control of how I choose to respond to these situations, right?

So I can't control what my mom does or says or whether she goes to therapy.

I can't always control the way my husband shows up or my sister or my colleagues at work, but I can always control how I respond to those things.

And that sense of empowerment, I think, that comes from boundaries, that come from my recovery practice, that come from therapy, that comes from my movement practice, like, all of these things that require me to check in with myself and ask myself what I need, and then realize that I have the power to act on that -- those are the things that bring me real freedom.

>> Oh, man.

>> I know.

It's not easy.

But I don't want to be in a relationship that makes me feel like crap every time I show up or that doesn't allow me to be my fullest self or that, like, hurts me every time I'm there.

>> It's not worth it.

>> I don't think that it is.

And I can't make that decision for anybody else.

If you say like, "No, she's my mom, and I want to maintain a relationship with my mom and, like, she's family, and I'm going to," then, like, that's your decision, but I want you to go into it eyes open.

>> Yeah, and I think there's -- Listen, I think there's -- I used to get really annoyed with my mom, right?

I think because I'm the youngest of four and I used to feel like she always treated me like a baby.

Even today, it's like I'm doing so much for, you know, her and different things, but she still treats me a certain way sometimes where it's like, "Okay, Mom, don't do this."

It's like this a little annoyance, right?

And it wasn't until a few years ago where I said, "You know what?

I'm just going to accept her for it.

I may not like it.

I may not enjoy it.

But how can I change my response and my feeling towards it?

How can I tell a different story to myself about how my mom shows up?

Is it the worst thing in the world?

Is it, like, ruining my day?

No.

It's an annoyance that I grew up with this feeling."

And if I want to have a deeper, healthier relationship with my mom -- right?

-- As she continues to get older, I want to -- I want her in my life.

I don't want to distance myself because some things she says or does annoys me every now and then.

It's not like she's trying to ruin my life, right?

It's just her way of being.

>> Yeah.

>> And I've communicated what I don't like, and it's still happening.

It's like, "Okay, then do I want her in my life?

Yes.

Is she going to be this way?

Yes.

Okay.

Do I get to love and accept her for who she is and shift the narrative within me and have more patience, like you said, and learn how to deal with it?

Absolutely."

If that's the relationship I want.

And since doing that in the last couple years, like, it doesn't annoy me as much anymore.

I'm kind of like, "Okay."

I just kind of laugh it off, as opposed to get frustrated, because I chose to be different So there are nuances to it, as well, I think.

>> There absolutely are, and this is why there's no one-size-fits-all boundary scenario, because what might feel like an annoyance to you might be really harmful to somebody else.

What one family is like, "Oh, my gosh, how could you interact like that as a family?

That wouldn't work for us."

If somebody else is like, "Absolutely, drop over whenever you want.

You don't even have to knock."

There is no one size fits all.

>> Yeah, the door is always open.

Yeah, stay anytime you want.

>> Yeah.

But I do like this idea of asking myself like, "What is the story I'm telling myself about this?

And, like, is there some examination of that that I could do on my end?"

>> Can I be more flexible or more accepting?

>> Yeah.

Sure.

>> Unless it's some extreme thing where you don't feel safe, then create the boundary, right?

You need space.

You need bou-- Okay, cool.

But if your mom's just being annoying every now and then, like, okay, just love her and accept her and just move on.

>> I think so, yes.

>> Well, the book you have, "The Book of Boundaries," is a game changer.

It's about setting the limits that will set you free.

And I think the thing that most people want is freedom.

You talked about it.

It's something I wanted my entire life that I struggle with.

I didn't feel free internally.

And the process of creating agreements with myself, creating agreements with others, and healing and integrating that healing process throughout life is what has allowed me to be more and more free every day.

And so if you guys are looking for freedom, make sure you get a copy of this book.

You can go to MelissaU.com.

It'll have the book there.

You can get it there.

It's on Amazon, as well.

"The Book of Boundaries."

Or anywhere else you guys get books.

How else can we be of service and support to you today, Melissa?

>> Mm.

I like that you asked that question.

Thank you.

This conversation was everything.

I always love coming in here to talk to you.

And I always feel like you get me to share more than I thought I was going to, but in, like, a really safe and authentic way.

So I appreciate that.

I always enjoy our talks.

Thank you.

>> Of course, of course.

I want to acknowledge you, Melissa, for taking on this challenge of talking about this, because I think you're similar to me in some ways, that I write the books that I need.

>> Yeah.

Yes.

>> Right?

"Whole30" was for you.

>> Yes.

>> "The Book of Boundaries" is for you, right?

You were like, "I didn't have any boundaries.

Let me learn this process and then write about my findings and how it's helped me."

>> Yeah.

>> And, so, you know, I do the interviews that I need, right?

It's like the things that I do, as well.

So I want to acknowledge you for having the courage to take on this topic, create boundaries in a healthy way in your life and all your relationships, because it can be very challenging if you've lived a majority of your life without them, having to shift into becoming the person who creates healthy agreements and boundaries in your life with yourself and with others.

So I acknowledge you for taking this on and for sharing this wisdom with so many people that could use this book.

This question I think I've asked you before, but I'm gonna ask you again.

It's the Three Truths question.

So, imagine a hypothetical scenario.

It's your last day on Earth, many years away.

>> Okay.

>> You live as long as you want to live, but then, eventually, you got to go.

And you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish.

You've seen, you know, your kid grow up and live a great life.

You have a great marriage.

All the things you want, they happen.

But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go with you -- books, work.

You know, this interview is gone.

>> Yeah.

>> But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true for you, and that's all we have to remember you by -- these three truths.

What would those be for you?

>> The first one is that you can trust yourself.

Hard stop.

I mean, do I have to pick three?

If I just shared that one, would that be enough?

I think the other thing I would say is, connect more than you think you need.

I'm literally talking to myself right now.

And I think the third is find joy.

>> Find joy.

>> Seek it, look for it.

>> Love those.

>> Yeah.

>> Final question -- what's your definition of greatness?

>> Ooh!

Showing up as my full self everywhere I go.

>> There you go.

>> Just like that.

>> Thank you.

>> Appreciate it.

We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, LewisHowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to LewisHowes.com/tv.