>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> TRUMP, PUTIN, AND THEIR HEAVILY HYPED CALL.

AFTER HANGING UP, RUSSIA ATTACKED UKRAINE OVERNIGHT.

I ASK FORMER CELESTE WALLANDER WHY SHE THINKS PUTIN REBUFFED TRUMP'S CEASE-FIRE.

THEN?

>> I NEVER DID DEFY A COURT ORDER.

>> THE PRESIDENT PUSHES THE CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS, CALLING TO IMPEACH A JUDGE WHO RULED AGAINST HIM.

GREG SWENSON, FROM REPUBLICANS OVERSEAS, ON THE REACTION TO TRUMPISM FROM OVER HERE.

AND -- >> WE CAN REDUCE TUBERCULOSIS BY ANOTHER 50%, OR 99%, IF WE WANT TO, BUT WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE WANT TO.

>> AUTHOR JOHN GREEN TELLS HARI ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, "EVERYTHING IS TUBERCULOSIS," AND THAT DESPITE MILLIONS OF DEATHS PER YEAR, THE WORLD'S DEADLIEST INFECTIOUS DISEASE COULD BE ERADICATED.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WHEN EVERYBODY IN EUROPE IS TRYING TO DIGEST WHAT HAPPENS IN EUROPE NEXT, BECAUSE WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA COMMITS TO QUICKLY ENDING A VICIOUS WAR ON THE CONTINENT, AND THEN HAS A LONG PHONE CALL WITH THE AGGRESSOR, THE WORLD RIGHTLY HOLDS ITS BREATH.

WHEN THE RESULT OF DONALD TRUMP'S HEAVILY HYPED NEGOTIATING SESSION WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN IS NYET TO AN UNCONDITIONAL CEASE-FIRE, WELL, ARE WE BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD?

RUSSIA IMMEDIATELY LAUNCHED AIR ATTACKS OVERNIGHT, AND SO DID UKRAINE.

DURING HIS STATE VISIT TO FINLAND, THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, SAID PUTIN'S WORLDS ARE AT ODDS WITH REALITY.

>> Translator: AFTER PUTIN'S CONVERSATION WITH THE U.S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, WHEN PUTIN SAID THAT HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY GIVEN THE ORDER TO STOP THE STRIKES ON THE UKRAINIAN ENERGY SECTOR, THERE WERE 150 DRONES OVERNIGHT, INCLUDING TARGETING ENERGY FACILITIES.

THE STRIKES WERE ON TRANSPORT.

UNFORTUNATELY, TWO HOSPITALS WERE HIT.

ON ORDINARY URBAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> MOSCOW DID AGREE TO EXCHANGE MORE PRISONERS OF WAR WITH KYIV, 300 IN ALL TODAY, AND THE U.S. SAYS MORE TALKS ARE PLANNED.

AT THE PENTAGON, CELESTE WALLANDER OVERSAW U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND IN HER LATEST FOREIGN AFFAIRS ARTICLE, SHE SAYS THAT WITH UNCERTAINTY HANGING OVER AMERICAN AID TO KYIV, EUROPE AND UKRAINE HAVE MORE LEVERAGE THAN THEY THINK.

AND SHE'S JOINING US FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. CELESTE WALLANDER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> SO, ARE YOU ALSO SCRATCHING YOUR HELD OR DO YOU HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF CLARITY ON WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THAT CALL BETWEEN PUTIN AND TRUMP, OR THE RESULT OF IT?

>> WELL, WE DON'T HAVE A FULL READOUT OF ALL OF THE DETAILS, BUT WE DO HAVE THE TWO CHARACTERIZATIONS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND FROM THE KREMLIN, AND WHAT'S CLEAR IS THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN ACCEPTED ALMOST NOTHING THAT WAS PUT BEFORE HIM IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE AN IMMEDIATE CEASE- FIRE, THE SAME DEAL THAT HAD BEEN PROPOSED TO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY THAT HE ACCEPTED.

ALL THAT PUTIN ACCEPTED WAS THE IDEA OF AN IMMEDIATE CESSATION -- MUTUAL CESSATION ON ATTACKS ON ENERGY INFRATUCK SURE, NOT ENERGY AND INFRASTRUCTURE, AS THE WHITE HOUSE HAD HOPED, BUT SIMPLY ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

BUT EVEN THAT VERY, VERY SMALL CONCESSION, AS YOU NOTED, CHRISTIANE, WAS COMPLETELY OVERWRITTEN BY RUSSIAN ACTIONS, AND CONTINUING ATTACKS ON UKRAINIAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT ALSO, CIVILIAN TARGETS LIKE HOSPITALS AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS.

SO, I THINK THE ANSWER IS, NOT MUCH HAS BEEN ACHIEVED, AND THERE'S STILL A LOT OF WORK FOR THE WHITE HOUSE TO DO.

>> FROM WHAT WE GATHER, YOU KNOW, JUST TO DRILL DOWN, WHY DO YOU THINK PUTIN COULDN'T EVEN STICK TO THAT MINIMAL THING THAT HE, I GUESS, HE WAS TRYING TO GIVE TRUMP SOMETHING AND NOT SAY NO TO EVERYTHING, AND THE READOUT, I THINK, FROM THE KREMLIN WAS THAT PUTIN HAD INSTRUCTED THE MILITARY TO --TO NOT, YOU KNOW, DO WHAT WE HAD AGREED NOT TO DO.

WHY DO YOU THINK ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THAT WAS BROKEN?

>> THIS IS ABSOLUTELY HOW RUSSIA UNDER PUTIN CONDUCTS ITSELF ALL THE TIME.

THE RUSSIAN MEDIA AND RUSSIAN STATEMENTS ALREADY ARE SAYING THAT, NO, NO, THOSE DRONES WERE NOT ATTACKING ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, AS PRESIDENT PUTIN SAID THEY WOULD NOT.

THEY WERE ATTACKING MILITARY TARGETS.

SO, ALREADY THEY'RE SHAPING THE NARRATIVE, WHICH IS A NICE WAY OF SAYING LYING ABOUT WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, VLADIMIR PUTIN DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE PRESIDENT TRUMP ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, HE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO SAY, SURE, I'LL -- I'M WORK ON YOUR DESIRED PEACE AGREEMENT, LET'S DO A CEASE-FIRE WHILE WE GET TO WHAT I REALLY WANT, WHICH ARE MY TERMS.

HE WASN'T GOING TO JUST SAY NO, BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE BLAMED, AND SO, HE DID JUST ENOUGH TO THEN TRY TO OBFUSCATE THE IDEA THAT RUSSIA WAS NEVER EVEN GOING TO IMPLEMENT THAT SMALL STEP, AND TRY TO SHIFT THE BLAME TO UKRAINE.

>> SO, JUST WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN TERMS OF GEOPOLITICS AND INTERNATIONAL NEGOTIATING AND LEVERAGE, WHEN THE HIGHEST, I MEAN, THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD, THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, DONALD TRUMP, GOES STRAIGHT TO A CALL WITH PUTIN.

I KNOW THAT THE SECRETARIES OF STATE HAD SOME MEETING IN --IN SAUDI ARABIA.

BUT SO, WHERE IS THE --WHERE ARE THE PRESSURE POINTS ANYMORE, IF WE'VE HAD A GREAT BIG NOTHING BURGER SO FAR?

>> WELL, THE --IT IS A FACT THAT IN THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM, ONLY PRESIDENT PUTIN CAN AND WILL DECIDE WHEN AND IF TO AGREE TO A CEASE-FIRE, TO AGREE TO A PEACE SETTLEMENT, AND TO INSTRUCT HIS GOVERNMENT TO IMPLEMENT IT.

SO, IN THE END, THE CONVERSATION DOES HAVE TO HAPPEN WITH PUTIN, AN, YOU KNOW, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THE RUSSIAN SYSTEM WORKS.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE CLEAR, REPEATEDLY, AND HIS TEAM HAS SAID, BOTH PUBLICLY AND IN VARIOUS BACKGROUNDERS, THAT IF PRESIDENT PUTIN DOES NOT STEP UP, DOES NOT MOVE FORWARD ON A PEACE NEGOTIATION THAT IS MEANINGFUL AND WILL END THE CONFLICT, THAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS READY TO IMPOSE ADDITIONAL COSTS ON RUSSIA TO PRESSURE PUTIN TO COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE IN GOOD FAITH.

THAT COULD BE AND SHOULD BE ADDITIONAL ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, AND IT SHOULD BE CONTINUED, AND EVEN ENHANCED MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE, SO THAT THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY CAN CONTINUE TO DEFEND ITS COUNTRY, BUT ALSO BRING THE PAIN TO RUSSIA, AS WE'VE SEEN THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES DO.

>> SO, YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW PUTIN BASICALLY SAID, AS ONE OF HIS CONDITIONS FOR ANY KIND OF CEASE- FIRE, THIS IS JUST A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, NOT EVEN ANYTHING ELSE, THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO MORE --ANY EXTERNAL AID TO KYIV, NOT FROM EUROPE, NOT FROM THE UNITED STATES, NO MORE INTELLIGENCE SHARING.

SO, DO YOU THINK, A, THAT U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE AND INTELLIGENCE WILL CONTINUE, GIVEN WHAT PUTIN, YOU KNOW, HAS DONE SO FAR, WHICH IS NOT MUCH, AND DO YOU THINK, BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, THAT EUROPE CAN FILL THE GAP?

>> SO, ON THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE TO DELIVER SECURITY ASSISTANCE, AFTER THAT BRIEF, UNFORTUNATE TEMPORARY PAUSE IN DELIVERY, THE UNITED STATES HAS ANNOUNCED THAT IT HAS CONTINUED TO DELIVER SECURITY ASSISTANCE.

THESE ARE --THESE ARE STOCKS OF CAPABILITIES THAT WERE ALREADY CONTRACTED FOR, AND THAT WERE BEING PRODUCED BY AMERICAN DEFENSE INDUSTRY FOR DELIVERY TO UKRAINE THROUGH 2025.

SO, THAT IS ONE KIND OF BUCKET OF CAPABILITIES THAT UKRAINE CAN USE AND HAS USED OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND ITS COUNTRY AND BRING THE FIGHT IN SOME INSTANCES, BACK TO RUSSIA.

BUT IF THAT ASSISTANCE WERE TO BE AGAIN PAUSED OR EVEN, PERHAPS, SUSPENDED, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS, EUROPE HAS RAMPED UP ITS PRODUCTION, IT HAS ALLOCATED FINANCING TO BE ABLE TO PURCHASE AMMUNITION, AIR DEFENSE INTERCEPTORS, MILITARY VEHICLES, RADAR SYSTEMS, ON INTERNATIONAL MARKETS, AS WELL AS WITHIN EUROPE.

AND SO, OVER TIME, WHAT WAS PRIMARILY A U.S. SECURITY ASSISTANCE DELIVERY, EARLY IN 2022, WITH EUROPEAN HELP, HAS NOW SHIFTED TO, IN 2024, PRETTY MUCH EUROPE TAKING THE LEAD AND DELIVERING EVEN MORE CAPABILITY THAN THE UNITED STATES.

AND UKRAINE ALSO CAN PRODUCE MUCH OF ITS OWN AMMUNITION AND ALSO IS INCREDIBLY ADEPT AT PRODUCING AND INNOVATING DRONE TECHNOLOGY AND THE USE OF DRONES, WHICH HAVE PROVEN SO IMPORTANT IN THIS FIGHT.

SO, TAKEN TOGETHER, IF THE UNITED STATES WERE TO PAUSE, AND I VERY MUCH HOPE WE DO NOT, BOTH BECAUSE UKRAINE NEEDS THE CAPABILITIES, BUT ALSO TO SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STRATEGY OF BRINGING PUTIN TO THE TABLE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- PUTIN'S NOT GOING TO COME TO THE TABLE AND ACTUALLY MAKE COMPROMISES IF HE IS --IS PLAYING A STRONG CARD ON THE MILITARY FRONT, AND SO, YOU UKRAINE HAS TO ABLE TO CONTINUE TO DEFEND ITS COUNTRY FOR PUTIN TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A BIG CRITICISM OF THE ADMINISTRATION THAT YOU SERVED, THAT THERE JUST WASN'T ENOUGH QUICKLY ENOUGH, TO GET THAT DYNAMIC TO SHIFT, TO MAKE PUTIN THINK THAT HE NEEDED TO ACTUALLY COME TO THE TABLE.

SO, THE QUESTION IS, YES, THEY GOT A LOT, BUT --YOU KNOW THE CRITICISMS.

BUT --BUT THE QUESTION IS, WHAT DO YOU THINK, WHAT AFFECT DOES THE PAUSE ALREADY HAVE?

THE BRIEF PAUSE.

DO YOU THINK THE KURSK PUSH-BACK HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT?

>> I THINK THE PAUSE WAS MOSTLY A POLITICAL SIGNAL TO THE KREMLIN, AN UNFORTUNATE POLITICAL SIGNAL TO THE KREMLIN, AND ALSO, UNFORTUNATELY UNDERMINED UKRAINIAN MORALE, THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS SIGNALING IT WASN'T CONTINUING TO HAVE THAT LEADERSHIP ROLE IN SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

ON KURSK, I --THE PAUSE MAY HAVE, ON THE MARGINS, AFFECTED THE PACE OF THE RUSSIAN OPERATIONS, BUT THOSE OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN UNDER WAY FOR MONTHS, AND I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS PRESIDENT PUTIN DETERMINED TO TAKE BACK THAT TERRITORY, BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE IN A POSITION FOR THAT DAY WHEN NEGOTIATIONS ACTUALLY COME, THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO NEGOTIATE TO HAVE UKRAINIAN FORCES LEAVE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

THAT IS NOT --THAT IS NOT A MOVE BY A STRONG PUTIN.

AND PUTIN HAS ORDERED HIS MILITARY TO TAKE BACK TERRITORY BEFORE NEGOTIATIONS START.

SO, THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SLIGHT CHANGE IN PACE, BUT IN THE END, I --I THINK THAT PUTIN IS GOING TO INSIST THAT FIRST HE CONTROLS THAT TERRITORY BEFORE HE'S WILLING TO SERIOUSLY GET DOWN TO ANY NEGOTIATION.

>> CERTAINLY FROM PUTIN'S PERSPECTIVE, YOU CAN SEE THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO PUSH EVEN FURTHER IN ACROSS THE BORDER IN THE SUMI AREA, THE STRATEGIC AREA AROUND THERE, AND THIS GOES TO THE HEART OF THE TERRITORIAL SIDE OF ANY NEGOTIATIONS, BECAUSE TRUMP SAID THAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT TERRITORIES, HOW TO DIVIDE ASSETS, SO TO SPEAK, EVEN AT ONE POINT A POWER PLANT, BUT I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT ZELENSKYY SAID ABOUT TERRITORIES.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> Translator: AS FOR THE TERRITORIES, THIS WILL PROBABLY BE ONE OF THE MOST SENSITIVE AND DIFFICULT ISSUES IN THE UPCOMING NEGOTIATIONS.

THE FIRST STEP IS STILL AN UNCONDITIONAL CEASE-FIRE, EVEN IF THERE ARE SOME PATHS THAT STILL NEED TO BE TAKEN TO GET THERE.

FOR US, THE RED LINE IS THE RECOGNITION OF THE UKRAINIAN TEMPORARILY OCCUPIED TERRITORIES AS RUSSIAN.

WE WILL NOT GO FOR IT.

>> SO, THAT WAS HIM WITH THE PRESIDENT OF FINLAND.

SO, IT'S A RED LINE FOR US.

SO, WHERE IS THE NEGOTIATING ABILITY?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN ON TERRITORIES AND WHAT'S OCCUPIED RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THAT WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS INDICATING IS THAT UKRAINE WOULD BE WILLING TO A PEACE SETTLEMENT THAT IS NOT A FINAL SETTLEMENT.

AND THERE'S PRECEDENT FOR THIS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED STATES NEVER RECOGNIZED THE SOVIET OCCUPATION OF THE BALTIC STATES, OR ESTONIA, LATVIA, LITHUANIA, THROUGH THE COLD WAR.

THERE WAS A MATIC UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SOVIET UNION OCCUPIED THOSE TERRITORIES, CERTAINLY, THE SOVIET UNION CLAIMED THAT THOSE WERE TERRITORIES OF THE SOVIET UNION, BUT THE UNITED STATES NEVER ACTUALLY RECOGNIZED THOSE CLAIMS.

AND THEN, AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR, IT WAS QUITE A SIMPLE MATTER FOR THE UNITED STATES, AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, AND RUSSIA ITSELF, TO RECOGNIZE THE SOVEREIGNTY AND INDEPENDENCE OF THOSE COUNTRIES.

SO, QUIETLY, UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN WORKING OPTIONS FOR WHAT A PEACE AGREEMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE THAT DID NOT REQUIRE THEM, OR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO RECOGNIZE THOSE TERRITORIES AS PART OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION, PLAYING A VERY LONG GAME FOR THE DAY WHEN RUSSIA CONTINUES TO BE BURDENED BY SANCTIONS, AND HAS TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER OFF TOLL WORK WITH UKRAINE ON TERMS THAT UKRAINE CAN ACCEPT.

>> JUST OCCURS TO ME, DOES IT WORRY YOU THAT THE UNITED STATES ACTUALLY CAST A VOTE ON A DIFFERENT ISSUE, BUT ON THIS WHOLE AGGRESSION, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION ON THE THIRD ANNIVERSARY, CAST A VOTE WITH RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA, IRAN, AND ALL THAT LOT, AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RECOGNITION, I MEAN, THAT'S OFFICIAL U.S. VOTE WITH RUSSIA.

>> IT IS EXTREMELY CONCERNING.

AND THE FACT THAT WHAT IS APPARENT TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WHICH IS RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE, UKRAINE DID NOT THREATEN RUSSIA, WE'VE SEEN --RUSSIA IS OVER TEN TIMES AS POWERFUL AND AS LARGE IN TERMS OF ITS ECONOMY AND ITS MILITARY, NOT TO MENTION ITS SIZE, EVEN MORE THAN TEN TIMES LARGER THAN UKRAINE, THE NOTION THAT SOMEHOW UKRAINE PROVOKED THE INVASION IS PATENTLY FALSE.

AND WHILE THE WHITE HOUSE HAS CLAIMED THAT IT NEEDS TO LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR A POSITIVE RELATIONSHIP IN ORDER TO PERSUADE PUTIN TO COME TO THE TABLE, I THINK WHAT YOU SAW THIS WEEK WAS THAT POSITIVE INDUCEMENTS, CERTAINLY ALONE, AND I WOULD SAY, NOT VERY STRONGLY, EVEN AS PART OF A PACKAGE, ARE WHAT'S GOING TO GET PUTIN TO THE TABLE.

WHAT'S GOING TO GET PUTIN TO THE TABLE IS HIM DOING AN ASSESSMENT THAT HE CAN'T WIN, BECAUSE UKRAINE REMAINS STRONG, AND THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE CONTINUES TO SUPPORT IT.

AND THAT'S THE WAY TO GET TO A JUST SETTLEMENT.

>> AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ALWAYS SAYING PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH, SO, YOU'RE SAYING, HE HAS TO STRENGTHEN UKRAINE TO GET THIS PEACE.

AT LEAST GET IT THROUGH PUTIN'S HEAD.

CAN I ASK YOU, A DIFFERENT ISSUE, YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, EX-PENTAGON.

THIS PURGING AT THE PENTAGON, ANYTHING DEI, THESE INITIALS THAT HAVE BECOME POISON, THIS ABILITY, OR ATTEMPT TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD FOR WOMEN AND BLACKS AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, IS JUST OUT THE WINDOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU SAW TODAY THAT JACKIE ROBINSON, HIS MILITARY SERVICE HAS BEEN PURGED FROM THE WEBSITE, THE FIRST BLACK MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER.

THE NATIVE AMERICAN SOLDIER WHO HELD THE FLAG ON IWOJIMA AFTER IT WAS LIBERATED, HE AND NATIVE AMERICAN CONTRIBUTIONS HAVE BEEN PURGED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, AND IN GENERAL, WHAT THESE PURGES ARE DOING, A, ON THE PREPAREDNESS AND READINESS IN THE PENTAGON, AND ON THE MORALE?

>> I --IT'S FRANKLY SHOCKING.

ONE OF THE INCREDIBLE PRIVILEGES OF SERVING AT THE PENTAGON IS TO BE PART OF A CULTURE THAT VALUES EACH AND EVERY MEMBER OF THEFORM ED MILITARY AND CIVILIAN SERVICE, AND RESPECT THEM AND HONOR THEIR SACRIFICE.

IT IS SIGNIFICANT, IN TERMS OF LONG DAYS, FAMILIES HAVING TO MOVE TO SUPPORT THEIR MOTHER AND FATHER, WHO IS IN SERVICE, THERE IS A VERY, VERY STRONG CULTURE IN THE U.S. MILITARY AND AT THE PENTAGON, RESPECTING EVERY SINGLE MEMBER FOR THEIR SERVICE, AND TO DISMISS ANY INDIVIDUAL, INCLUDING VERY FAMOUS INDIVIDUALS, WELL-KNOWN FOR THEIR SACRIFICES, SENDS A HORRIBLE MESSAGE TO THE AMERICAN SERVICE MEMBERS, AND FUTURE SERVICE MEMBERS.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE VERY WORRIED IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN, THAT THE FUTURE SOLDIERS, THE FUTURE LEADERS OF THE AMERICAN MILITARY, THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP US SAFE AND SECURE, AND WHO SACRIFICE FOR THIS COUNTRY, WILL BEGIN TO ASK A QUESTION ABOUT, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?

WHY WOULD THEY SERVE A U.S. GOVERNMENT THAT SO QUICKLY WOULD DISMISS INDIVIDUALS WHO MADE THOSE SACRIFICES.

AND THE MORALE IN THE ARMED SERVICES IS TAKING A SERIOUS HIT, AND THAT IS BAD MORE FERN SECURITY.

>> CELESTE WALLANDER, FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW TO THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE BALANCE OF POWER IS BEING TESTED.

THE WHITE HOUSE FACES INCREASING PUSH-BACK AFTER THE ADMINISTRATION DEFIED A JUDGE'S ORDER TO HALT THE DEPORTATION OF VENEZUELAN MIGRANTS TO EL SALVADOR.

THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY'RE SUSPECTED GANG MEMBERS, AND TRUMP THEN INSULTED THE INDEPENDENT JUDGE, JAMES BOASBERG.

ONE GOP CONGRESSMAN LOYALIST EVEN FILED ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST THE JUDGE.

THIS PROMPTED THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT JOHN ROBERTS INTO A RARE PUBLIC STATEMENT.

HE SAID, QUOTE, FOR MORE THAN TWO CENTURIES, IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT IMPEACHMENT IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO DISAGREEMENT CONCERNING A JUDICIAL DECISION.

THE NORMAL APELL LALT REVIEW PROCESS EXISTS FOR THAT PURPOSE.

IT'S JUST ONE OF MANY WAYS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS BUSTING NORMS AND PUSHING CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS TO BREAKING POINT.

AND THEN, THERE'S THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, THE ARREST WITHOUT CHARGE OF PROTESTERS IN AMERICA, CAUSING DEEP FEARS ABOUT THE END OF THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE, THAT'S OVER HERE.

GREG SWENSON IS THE CHAIRMAN OF REPUBLICANS OVERSEAS HERE IN THE UK, AND HE'S JOINING ME IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO, THAT IS QUITE A LIST.

AND I COULD CARRY ON.

HOW DO YOU DEFEND ALL THIS?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S DIFFERENT VIEWS.

YOU BROUGHT UP A COUPLE OF ISSUES, BUT THERE'S JUST DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON THAT, SO, YES, PRESIDENT TRUMP, MANY WOULD ARGUE, HE'S PUSHING CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, HE'S WELL WITHIN THE SOLE PURVIEW OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND THE EXAMPLE, I THINK, WITH VENEZUELA, THAT'S THE ARTICLE 2 POWERS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ONE TO PUSH LIMITS, THAT'S WHAT WE VOTED FOR, AND THAT'S WHY HE WAS ELECTED, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, HE'S STILL WITHIN HIS CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATIONS.

>> SO, HE SAID, AND HE SAID SEVERAL TIMES, I WOULD NOT DEFY A COURT ORDER.

BUT APPARENTLY HE HAS DEFIED A COURT ORDER, THE PAPERWORK WAS TAKEN, THE PLANES WERE TOLD NOT TO TAKE OFF, AND THEY TOOK OFF ANYWAY.

AND THEN TRUMP CALLS THE JUDGE IN QUESTION A RADICAL LEFT, I DON'T KNOW, LUNATIC OR SOMETHING.

AND THEN HERE IS A VERY NOTABLE, CONSERVATIVE JUDGE, MICHAEL LUTIG ON MSNBC.

THIS IS WHAT HE'S SAYING ABOUT THIS.

>> THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS ESSENTIALLY DECLARED WAR ON THE RULE OF LAW IN AMERICA, AND IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS, AS YOU EXPLAINED, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS LED A FULL FRONTAL ASSAULT ON THE CONSTITUTION, THE RULE OF LAW, THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY, THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND THE NATION'S LEGAL PROFESSION.

WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WAGES A WAR, ON THE RULE OF LAW AND THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY, ALI, AMERICA IS IN A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

>> I MEAN, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

THAT IS A JUSTICE THAT WAS APPOINTED BY GEORGE W. BUSH, ANOTHER VERY DYED IN THE WOOL CONSERVATIVE.

THEY'RE WORRIED.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S --LOOK, I DIDN'T SEE THE SAME COMPLAINTS FROM THOSE PEOPLE WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS --I HATE TO BE WHAT ABOUTISM -- >> I'M NOT SURE THAT HE VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION.

>> WELL, HE DID.

>> AND IED A JUDGE.

>> YES, WHEN THE SUPREME COURT, IN FACT, RULED AGAINST THE STUDENT LOAN, THE SO-CALLED STUDENT LOAN RELIEF, WHICH WASN'T REALLY RELIEF, IT WAS TAXPAYER FUNDING STUDENT LOAN RELIEF, AND HE ACTUALLY BRAGGED ABOUT IT WHEN HE DEFIED THAT, AND -- >> I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GET SOME INFORMATION ON THAT.

LET'S ASK YOU WHETHER, IF YOU DISAPPROVED OF THAT -- >> YEAH.

>> DO YOU DISAPPROVE OF THIS?

>> I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE GRAY HERE.

WHEN --APPARENTLY, MAYBE I'M WRONG HERE, BUT THE PLANES HAD ALREADY LEFT.

>> YES.

WELL -- >> SO, THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD.

THE PLANES HAD LEFT, SO, THEY DIDN'T TURN AROUND MIDAIR -- >> THEY WERE TOLD TO, THOUGH.

THEY WERE TOLD TO.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S --THE DECISION WAS MADE BY THE PRESIDENT UNDER ARTICLE 2 POWERS, AND SO, I DON'T THINK ANYONE VOTED FOR, YOU KNOW, THE JUDICIARY TO BE SUPREME, IT'S THE BALANCE OF POWER, AND I DO THINK THAT A CONSTITUTIONALIST COURT IS GOING TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE SUPPORTIVE OF, YOU KNOW, THE ORIGINALIST ARGUMENTS.

BUT IN THE ORIGINALIST ARGUMENTS, THE PRESIDENT HAS CLEAR --THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS CLEAR POWERS.

>> YEAH, BUT THIS IS THE POINT RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?

SO --YES, I MEAN, THE CONSTITUTION, I THINK, GIVES CO-EQUAL POWER TO THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, SO, THE EXECUTIVE, THE LEGISLATIVE, AND THE JUDICIARY.

AND RIGHT NOW, THE EXECUTIVE IS PERCEIVED AND IS TRAMPLING OVER THE OTHER TWO.

CONGRESS AND THE JUDICIARY.

SO -- >> AGAIN -- >> WHEN YOU SIT OVERSEAS AND YOUR FRIENDS MUST BE ASKING YOU, AND IN A MINUTE, I'M GOING TO WAVE THE NEWSPAPER, IT'S ALL DOOM AND GLOOM ABOUT HIS ECONOMIC IDEAS.

YOU'RE HERE IN ENGLAND, THERE'S A KING, KING CHARLES, WHO TRUMP LIKES, IT'S A CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY, BUT TRUMP, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT TO SAY, BECAUSE IT GOES TO HIS CHARACTER, EVEN REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS ROYALTY RECENTLY.

AS YOU KNOW, HE MOVED TO KILL CONGESTION PRICING IN NEW YORK CITY AND HE WROTE "LONG LIVE THE KING. "

SO, AGAIN, THIS IS WHO HE IS, AND HIS LOYALISTS ARE NOT STOPPING HIM, AND THEY'RE SAYING HE HAS UNRESTRAINED POWER, BECAUSE HE'S THE EXECUTIVE AND HE'S THE PRESIDENT.

AND THAT'S A TEST RIGHT NOW.

>> YEAH.

ONLY FOR --FOR ISSUES THAT ARE IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

HE'S NOT STEPPING ON THE CONGRESS'S TOES.

YEAH, THERE ARE SOME THINGS WHERE -- >> HE IS.

USAID.

USAID.

HE'S STEPPING ON THE TOES OF THOSE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO APPROVE FUNDING, IT'S CALLED CONGRESSIONALLY APPROVED.

>> IT STARTED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH WITH JOHN F. KENNEDY, AND IT SITS IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, SO, HE HAS THAT RIGHT.

AND IF CONGRESS CHOOSES OTHERWISE, THEY CAN OPINE ON IT, BUT YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT --HE'S NOT MAKING LAWS.

>> OKAY.

>> HE'S THERE TO EXECUTE THE LAWS.

>> AGAIN, I JUST --A JUDGE TODAY SAID THAT HE MIGHT BE --IT MIGHT BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL WHAT MUSK AND I GUESS TRUMP HAVE DONE OVER USAID.

THIS IS "THE WASHINGTON POST. "

PRESIDENT TRUMP ASSERTS THAT HE CAN WITHHOLD MONEY THAT CONGRESS HAS ALLOCATED AND TELL THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT NOT TO ENFORCE LAWS.

AND IF JUDGES RULE AGAINST HIM, HE S THEY SHOULD BE IMPEACHED.

THEY SAY THE CONSTITUTION GRANTS THE PRESIDENT BROAD AUTHORITY TO DO IT.

BUT --YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOING TO BE ADJUDICATED, I ASSUME, WHEN A BIG CASE COMES TO THE SUPREME COURT.

DO YOU THINK IT'S CORRECT THAT THE EXECUTIVE SHOULD HAVE UNLIMITED POWER?

>> OF COURSE NOT.

BUT ONLY POWER WITHIN WHAT'S GRANTED IN THE CONSTITUTION.

AND SO, IN THIS CASE, I THINK WHAT JOHN ROBERTS IS SAYING, LET'S GO THROUGH -- >> DO YOU AGREE?

>> WELL, HE'S GOT A POINT.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S GOING TO COST -- >> HE'S THE MAIN --THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

IT'S MORE THAN A POINT.

>> I BELIEVE IT WAS 6-4, I KNOW BOTH HE AND AMY CONEY BARRETT, RULED WITH THE LIBERALS ON THAT, SO --LOOK, THAT'S --THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS.

AND --IN COURTS.

AND THIS IS NOT --THIS IS NOT A CONSISTENTLY 6-3 CONSERVATIVE COURT.

AND THAT'S A GOOD ARGUMENT FOR HOW BALANCED THEY ARE.

THEY'RE ORIGINALISTS, NOT PURE CONSERVATIVES.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF PEOPLE VOTING WITH THEIR PRESENCE AT TOWN HALLS, OF THE STOCK MARKET REACTING VERY BADLY TO HIS ECONOMY, BUT PEOPLE ARE SHOWING UP, AS YOU KNOW, IN TOWN HALLS.

CHALLENGING THEIR REPUBLICAN CONGRESSPEOPLE.

HERE --HERE IS THIS, AND THERE'S ALSO A SOUND BYTE.

WE HAVE ONE MAN IN NORTH CAROLINA HERE.

>> YES OR NO, DO YOU SUPPORT TRUMP ON ANNEXING CANADA OR GREENLAND?

AND DO YOU --DO YOU LIKE THE WAY HE TREATS THE PREMIER, OR, THE PRESIDENT OF CANADA?

CALLING HIM GOVERNOR?

IS THAT THE WAY THE UNITED STATES SHOULD ACT TO OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBORS?

DO YOU ENJOY THE WAY HE'S TRIED TO EXTORT MINERALS FROM THE UKRAINE?

DO YOU LIKE BULLYING PEOPLE THAT NEED YOUR HELP?

>> THIS IS GOING ON ALL OVER.

I --SITTING HERE AND WATCHING THAT, WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR --I MEAN, YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN, YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE.

ARE YOU A MAGA CONSERVATIVE?

>> DON'T LIKE TO DEFINE MYSELF AS -- >> ARE YOU A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE.

>> I WOULD DEFINITELY ARGUE A PHILOSOPHICAL - - >> DOES THIS BREAK THE WRONG WAY?

>> NO.

YOU CAN BE BOTH.

AND I THINK YOU'VE SEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP BRING IN A LOT OF THE TRADITIONAL WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY CONSERVATIVES INTO THE FOLD.

>> WHERE ARE THEY?

>> THERE ARE STILL GOING TO BE YOUR NEVER TRUMPERS - - >> THEY AREN'T.

THEY'VE ALL HAD THEIR SOCIAL MEDIAS EXAMINED AND LOYALTY IS THE LITMUS TEST FOR THEIR APPOINTMENT.

>> I THINK IT'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO.

YOU KNOW, IN HIS FIRST TERM, THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN THE ADMINISTRATION, THAT WERE NOT LOYAL, AND IN MANY WAYS WERE WORKING AGAINST HIM.

SO, SOME WOULD ARGUE ON THE RIGHT, WELL, THE ADULTS WERE IN THE ROOM, YOU KNOW, HE HAD PEOPLE THAT WILL COUNTER, YOU KNOW, AND CONTROL WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO.

AND THAT'S REALLY NOT WHAT YOU VOTE FOR.

YOU VOTE FOR THE EXECUTIVE, YOU WANT THE EXECUTIVE TO APPOINT PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIS ISSUES, AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT, THEY CAN RESIGN.

VERY MUCH LIKE THE SYSTEM HERE IN THE UK ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO DO.

I THINK IT'S GREAT.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO EXPRESS THEIR OPPOSITION TO WHAT'S HAPPENING, GOOD FOR THEM.

YOU SEE THAT IN BOTH --WITH BOTH PARTIES.

>> SO, YOU THINK IT'S GREAT.

YOU DON'T SEE THIS LEVEL OF CHAOS AND ERRATIC BEHAVIOR -- >> NO.

>> YOU DON'T SEE THAT WITH BOTH PARTIES?

>> BECAUSE IT'S NOT A REVOLUTION.

IT'S A COUNTERREVOLUTION.

I THINK WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN THE BIDEN YEARS, SO MUCH OF IT WAS SO OUTRAGEOUS, IT NEEDS A DISRUPTOR, IT NEEDS SOMETHING WHO IS PROVOCATIVE AND ISN'T GOING TO NECESSARILY STAY WITHIN THE TRADITIONAL LANES.

BUT AS LONG AS IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL, THEN ALL GOOD.

>> AGAIN, WE'RE ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER IT'S BUSTING THE CONSTITUTION AND WHAT WILL BE THE SUPREME COURT DECISION EVENTUALLY, IF A CASE GETS TO THE SUPREME COURT.

BUT -- YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A BUSINESSMAN.

I JUST HAVE ONE NEWSPAPER, BUT THIS IS TWO SIDES, LEFT AND RIGHT, WITH STORIES OF ECONOMIC WOES.

SO -- >> YEAH.

>> JUST TO QUOTE, YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE INAUGURATION WAS DAVOS, YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THERE.

WERE YOU THERE?

>> NO, BUT I FOLLOWED IT.

>> TOTALLY BULLISH ON AMERICA, ALL THESE AMERICANS AND OTHERS SAYING YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT, DEREGULATION, WE CAN INVEST, BUSINESS, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

NOW THEY ARE JUST TURNING IN CIRCLES, BECAUSE THEY SEE ERRATIC DECISIONS ON THE ECONOMY, TRADE WARS, TARIFFS, YES, NO, YOU KNOW ET CETERA.

THEY SEE A BIT OF CHAOS, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PLAN IS AND WHAT THE REASONS ARE.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THEY SEE VISIBLY THE STOCK MARKET GOING DOWN.

>> RIGHT.

>> AS OPPOSED TO UP.

WHILE EUROPE AND ASIA IS GOING UP.

>> YEAH, THE MARKETS ARE --IT'S VERY CLEAR CLEAR, MARKETS DON'T LIKE UNCERTAINTY.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP DEFINES UNCERTAINTY.

ONE DAY, IT'S 25%, THE NEXT DAY IT'S 50%.

HE USES TARIFFS IN MANY WAYS AS A NEGOTIATING TOOL - - >> AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SAID AT THE BEGINNING.

THOUSAND NOW HE'S USING IT AS A TRADE WAR.

THAT WAS 1.0.

>> ONE IS THE SUSTAINING TRADE DEFICITS FOR THE UNITED STATES IS UNSUSTAINABLE RIGHT NOW.

SO, RIGHT NOW, FOR GENERATIONS, WE'VE HAD MASSIVE TRADE DEFICITS WITH OUR TRADING PARTNERS AND IT'S BECAUSE AMERICANS ARE TYPICALLY RICHER AND WE CAN BUY MORE THINGS THAN OUR TRADING PARTNERS CAN BUY.

HOWEVER, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN FUNDED BY THE CAPITAL MARKETS.

WE HAVE THE BIGGEST BOND MARKET IN THE WORLD, THE BIGGEST CAPITAL MARKETS IN THE WORLD.

IT SEEMED EASY.

YOU JUST BORROWED MONEY TO FUND THE TRADE DEFICIT.

SO, WE BUY MORE STUFF, WE ENDED UP BORROWING TO SUSTAIN THAT.

WE HAVE NOW $36 TRILLION IN DEBT, $11 TRILLION OF THAT IS NEW, FROM THE LAST ADMINISTRATION.

AND INTEREST RATES ARE TWICE WHAT THEY WERE WHEN TRUMP WAS LAST PRESIDENT.

AND SO, THIS --JUST SUSTAINING THE INTEREST PAYMENTS ON THAT IS A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

IT'S SO MUCH HIGHER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN.

SO, WE JUST CAN'T CONTINUE TO BLINDLY FUND TRADE DEFICITS.

THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE ECONOMIC REALITIES.

AND I THINK THAT HAS TO DO A LOT WITH THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW.

THERE ARE HEADWINDS TO THIS ECONOMY, NOT BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT, BUT BECAUSE OF THE DEBT, BECAUSE OF INFLATION, SO, HE'S INHERITING AN ECONOMY QUITE DIFFERENT THAN THE 2017 ECONOMY.

>> RIGHT.

JUST GOING TO SAY THAT IN 2020, DURING THE ELECTION --2024, SORRY, THE ECONOMYIST WROTE, THE U.S. ECONOMY IS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD.

IT WAS DOING JUST FINE.

I KNOW THE PRICE OF EGGS AND GASOLINE FOR VOTERS AND THE COST OF LIVING WAS AN ISSUE, BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE NOW WORRIED.

SO, MY QUESTION IS, HOW DO TARIFFS, TARIFFS ARE INFLATIONARY, TARIFFS ARE A TAX ON THE CONSUMER, AND ON APRIL, THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER SLEW OF TARIFFS.

TRUMP HIMSELF IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T RULE OUT A RECESSION, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO --THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY, THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING FOR OUR END GAME.

SO, IT'S COMPLETELY TURNED THE CAMPAIGN RHETORIC ON ITS HEAD.

>> YEAH, WELL, HE'S ALSO REALISTIC.

HE UNDERSTANDS -- >> IT'S SELF-INFLICTED.

IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS SELF-INFLICTED.

>> THAT I DISAGREE WITH.

WHAT YOU HAD IN THE FALL AFTER THE ELECTION WAS JUST REAL OPTIMISM, AND I STILL THINK MUCH OF IT IS THERE.

BUT IT WAS --IT WAS ALMOST BLIND, BECAUSE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH IN THE LAST FEW YEARS WAS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD, WE HAD GROWTH.

AND A LOT OF THE --THE REST OF THE WORLD DIDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE SAME GROWTH WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS.

HOWEVER, THAT WAS FUNDED BY BARROWING.

THIS GOVERNMENT STIMULUS.

SO, AS A CONSERVATIVE, I LIKE THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO GENERATE GROWTH.

I LIKE TO, YOU KNOW, LOWER TAXES AND DEREGULATE, LET THE PRIVATE SECTOR ALLOCATE CAPITAL, TYPICALLY, THEY'RE MUCH BETTER AT IT.

FOREVER, FOR FOUR YEARS, WE'VE HAD UNBELIEVABLE BORROWING AND SPENDING.

THAT STIMULUS, OF COURSE, GENERATING GROWTH.

BUT WE STIMULATED THE ECONOMY WITH $8 TRILLION AND WE GOT $6 TRILLION OF GROWTH.

THAT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE.

THAT'S ALMOST A WASTE OF MONEY.

THERE WAS --NONE OF THAT MULTIPLIER EFFECT --IT WAS ACTUALLY NEGATIVE.

SO, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE COMING UP AGAINST, WHERE WE'VE ENJOYED GROWTH, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, THE GROWTH WAS ALL DRIVEN BY GOVERNMENT SPENDING, 63% OF THE JOBS CREATED IN THE BIDEN YEARS WERE GOVERNMENT AND HEALTH CARE, WHICH IS BASICALLY GOVERNMENT.

>> SO, YOU ARE A BUSINESS MAN.

>> YES.

>> ALL OF THIS, YOU MUST HAVE BUSINESS PEOPLE WHO ARE EITHER HAVE DINNER WITH, HAVING MEETINGS WITH, AND THEY'RE SAYING, WE'RE HOLDING OUR FIRE, WE'RE NOT INVESTING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN -- >> I'VE FOUND IT TO BE THE OPPOSITE.

YOU'VE GOT A TRILLION DOLLARS COMING FROM THE SAUDIS INTO THE U.S. MARKETS, NOT JUST THE PUBLIC MARKETS, THAT'S MORE IN THE PRIVATE CAPITAL MARKETS.

AND IT'S AGAIN, POLITICIANS ARE FUNNY, WHEN THE MARKET GOES UP, THEY SAY IT'S BECAUSE OF THEM.

WHEN THE MARKETS GO DOWN, THEY SAY IT'S BECAUSE OF SOMEONES, BUT THERE IS SOME MERIT TO THE ARGUMENT RIGHT NOW THAT THERE WILL BE PAIN IN THE PUBLIC MARKETS, BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EXPENSIVE.

WE HAD A GREAT STOCK MARKET FOR YEARS.

AND -- >> HOW IS IT THAT TRUMP SPENT HIS WHOLE FIRST TERM USING THE STOCK MARKET AS A METRIC FOR HIS ECONOMIC SUCCESS AND NOW HE'S SAYING NO, DOESN'T MATTER?

>> WELL, I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS, THE STOCK MARKET IN HIS FIRST TERM WAS DRIVEN BY MAIN STREET.

YOU HAD 6.8% WAGE GROWTH IN 2019, ALL OF THE MINORITY GROUPS, THE DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHICS, THE IDENTITY GROUPS THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE SO RELIANT ON IN MANY WAYS, DID BETTER IN THE TRUMP YEARS, MUCH BETTER THAN THE BIDEN YEARS OF 2009 TO '17.

SO, MAIN STREET WAS DRIVING THAT.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS JUST MAIN STREET, IT'S LOW INTEREST RATES, CHEAP MONEY, SPECULATION, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, ULTIMATELY, IT FOLLOWS MAIN STREET.

WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS, THE MARKETS DON'T LIKE THE VOLATILITY OR, MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE UNCERTAINTY, AND THEN, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MAIN STREET --IT MIGHT TAKE SOME TIME, BUT YOU'LL SEE MAIN STREET.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, I MEAN, I'M ASSUMING YOU ARE A DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PEOPLE LIKE AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD, EUROPE, JUST EUROPE, ORBAN, VUCHIC IN SERBIA, THEY'RE USING THE MUSK SLASHING AND KILLING USAID, THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING, WELL, IF THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY, THE BIGGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD CAN DO IT, WE'RE DOING IT.

THERE ARE MASSIVE PROTESTS GOING ON IN SERBIA OVER CORRUPTION, AND THE SERBIAN AUTHORITIES ARE HARASSING THESE NGOs.

>> RIGHT.

>> ARE YOU NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THE FALLOUT AROUND PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE IT'S IN AMERICA'S AND EVERYBODY'S INTEREST TO STRENGTHEN DEMOCRACY, RATHER THAN USE THE U.S. AS AN EXAMPLE TO WEAKEN IT?

>> YEAH, LOOK, I THINK --WE OBVIOUSLY ARE ADVOCATES OF DEMOCRACY, AND SOMETIMES DEMOCRACY YIELDS THINGS WE DON'T LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE LIKED THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION IN GERMANY, BUT ADF GETTING 20%, I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARILY DEMOCRATIC THAT THEY'VE BEEN EXCLUDED FROM THE PROCESS, BUT I DO THINK THAT WE ARE VERY, VERY OBVIOUSLY MASSIVE ENDORSERS OF DEMOCRACY.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IF THERE'S SOME AUTOCRATS, LIKE IN CHINA, LIKE IN RUSSIA, THOSE ARE -- IT'S JUST REAL POLITIC, WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM.

>> GREG SWENSON, REPUBLICANS ABROAD, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, A FEDERAL JUDGE IN MARYLAND IS BLOCKING THE TRUMP/MUSK DISMANTLING OF USAID, AS WE MENTIONED.

AUTHOR JOHN GREEN ARGUES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S CUTS TO FOREIGN AID ARE MAKING GLOBAL HEALTH OUTCOMES WORSE, ESPECIALLY FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASES LIKE TUBERCULOSIS.

GREEN EXPLAINS WHY TB IS STILL SO PREVALENT IN HIS NEW BOOK, AND HE JOINS HARI TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

JOHN GREEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

MOST OF THE FOLKS WATCHING THIS MIGHT REMEMBER YOU FROM THE BOOKS THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN, THE YOUNG ADULT CLASSICS THAT HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO MOVIES AND SO FORTH.

YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT, AND IT IS "EVERYTHING IS TUBERCULOSIS. "

THIS IS NONFICTION.

WHY -- I KNOW YOU'VE WRITTEN NONFICTION BEFORE, BUT WHY TUBERCULOSIS?

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO GO AFTER THIS TOPIC?

>> YEAH, THIS IS CERTAINLY A BIT OF A DEPARTURE FOR ME, BUT IN OTHER WAYS, I'M STILL WRITING ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN POETRY, WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY JAM.

I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE I MET A KID LIVING WITH TUBERCULOSIS, AND AFTER THAT, THE DISEASE BECAME UNDENIABLE TO ME, AND I CAME HOME OBSESSED WITH IT.

I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT WAS THAT I HAD NO IDEA THAT TB WAS STILL THE DEADLIEST INFECTIOUS DISEASE IN THE WORLD, AND WHY WE'RE LETTING A CURABLE DISEASE KILL OVER A MILLION PEOPLE EVERY YEAR.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT IT'S CURABLE IS STARTLING.

WHAT DOES WORK?

BECAUSE WE HAVE TRIED, AS YOU POINT OUT, GOING BACK IN HISTORY, WE'VE TRIED EVERYTHING FROM, YOU KNOW, BLOOD- LETTING TO ANIMAL SACRIFICE, AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE THOUGHT THAT WAS CAUSING THIS.

IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND DOCUMENTED.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO TREAT CONSUMPTION, BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE BAD HEALERS.

TODAY, WE HAVE POWERFUL ANTIBIOTICS.

IT'S NOT EASY TO CURE TUBERCULOSIS, IT TAKES BETWEEN FOUR AND SIX MONTHS OF ANTIBIOTIC THERAPY TO CURE IT.

BUT YOU CAN CURE IT, OFTEN WITH DRUGS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 1950s AND '60s.

>> MAYBE A SIMPLE SCIENCE QUESTION HERE, HOW IS TUBERCULOSIS TRANSMITTED?

WHAT DOES IT DO TO THE BODY?

>> IT'S AN AIRBORNE DISEASE, SO, IT SPREADS THROUGH THE AIR, AND THE AVERAGE PERSON WHO IS UNTREATED WITH TUBERCULOSIS AND HAS ACTIVE TB WILL SPREAD IT TO 10 AND 15 PEOPLE A YEAR.

IT USUALLY SETTLES IN THE LUNGS, AND THAT'S WHERE IT'S TRANSMITTED FROM, OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE OF COUGHING AND SNEEZING AND THE LIKE.

BUT IT CAN ALSO ATTACK ANY SYSTEM IN THE BODY, THERE'S MENINGITIS, WHICH PROBABLY KILLED EDGAR ALLEN POE, WHEN IT ATTACKS YOUR BRAIN.

TUBERCULOSIS THAT ATTACKS YOUR LYMPH NODES.

MY FRIEND HENLY RY HAD LYMPH NOELDS ERUPT FROM HIS SKIN WITH TUBERCULOSIS.

IT CAN ATTACK ANYWHERE.

>> WHAT IS IT THAT YOU FIND WEIRD ABOUT THIS DISEASE?

YOU CALL IT THAT.

WHAT MAKES THIS SO TOUGH TO FIGHT?

>> THIS IS A HARD DISEASE TO FIGHT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, BUT THE BIGGEST REASON IS A LACK OF POLITICAL WILL AND A LACK OF RESOURCES.

IT'S TRUE THAT TUBERCULOSIS IS HARD TO CURE, BUT MY BROTHER HAD CANCER A COUPLE YEARS AGO, AND AT NO POINT DID ANYONE SAY, OH, SORRY, HANK, THIS IS A TOUGH DISEASE TO CURE, THIS IS GOING TO TO REQUIRE MONTHS OF RADIATION AND CHEMOTHERAPY, BUT WE DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH THE COST.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE IN IMPOVERISHED COMMUNITIES HEAR ALL THE TIME.

>> WE HAVE THE MEDICINES, BUT THERE'S A GAP BETWEEN WHERE THE DISEASE IS AND THE MEDICINES ARE.

>> IT BOILS DOWN TO POLITICS AND A WILL TO GET THE CURE TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT, YES.

I THINK IT ALSO BOILS DOWN -- I ARGUE IN THE BOOK THAT TUBERCULOSIS IS EVERYTHING, AND EVERYTHING IS TUBERCULOSIS.

YES, IT'S POLITICS, BUT IT IS ALSO HISTORY, COLONIALISM, IT'S STRATEGIES OF EXTRACTIVE CAPITALISM THAT JUST DON'T WORK FOR IMPROVE IRISHED COMMUNITIES.

>> YOU SAY IT HAS LONG --TUBE BECK LORE SIS HAS LONG WRIGGLED ITS WAY THROUGH THE PATHS INJUSTICE CREATES.

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE.

>> WELL, I'LL GIVE YOU A GREAT EXAMPLE.

IF YOU OR I WERE TO GET TUBERCULOSIS TOMORROW, WE WOULD RECEIVE THE KIND OF PERSONALIZED, TAILORED TREATMENT THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD DESERVE.

BUT MY FRIEND HENRY, WHEN HE GOT SICK WITH TUBERCULOSIS, HE WAS TOLD THAT THOSE TREATMENTS WERE NOT AVAILABLE TO HIM, BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T COST EFFECTIVE.

SO, INSTEAD, HE WAS PUT ON A SECONDARY ANTIBIOTIC THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING WOULDN'T WORK, BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR GOOD TESTS, EITHER.

AND SO, HE ENDED UP HOSPITALIZED FOR OVER THREE YEARS, TAKING OVER 20,000 PILLS TO BE CURED.

AND MANY OF THOSE PILLS AND MANY OF THOSE MONTHS WERE SIMPLY UNNECESSARY.

>> WHY DID HENRY AFFECT YOU SO MUCH?

>> WELL, HE HAS THE SAME NAME AS MY SON, AND WHEN I FIRST MET HIM, HE LIKED OOKED TO BE THE SAME AGE AS MY SON, WHO WAS 9 AT THE TIME, BUT IT TURNED OUT HE WAS 17.

HE'S ONE OF THOSE UNCOMMONLY CHARISMATIC PEOPLE.

I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO IS UNUSUALLY CHARMED BY HENRY.

HE WAS SORT OF THE MAYOR OF THE TUBERCULOSIS HOSPITAL IN SE IERRA LEONE.

HE'S BELOVED BY THE STAFF AT THAT HOSPITAL.

SO, HE JUST --SOMETIMES PEOPLE COME INTO YOUR LIFE, YOU DON'T TOTALLY UNDERSTAND WHY, AND YOU END UP SPENDING THE NEXT FOUR YEARS OBSESSED WITH AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND WRITING A BOOK ABOUT IT.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

YOU ALSO WROTE ABOUT AN INTERESTING CHARACTER, A 19-YEAR-OLD TB PATIENT IN INDIA.

AND YOU HAVE ACTUALLY CALLED HER NAME OUT, SORT OF IN TESTIMONY BEFORE, SHE DIED IN 2018.

YOU SAID SHE DIDN'T REALLY DIE OF TUBERCULOSIS.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK IN THE 21st CENTURY, IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT TUBERCULOSIS ISN'T REALLY CAUSED BY A BACTERIA ANYMORE, BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW TO KILL THAT BACTERIA.

WE KNOW HOW TO CURE TUBERCULOSIS.

IN THE 21st CENTURY, WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THE REALITY THAT TUBERCULOSIS IS CAUSED BY US.

THE ULTIMATE CAUSE OF HER DEATH, YES, IT WAS TUBERCULOSIS, BUT IT WAS OFFICIAL INDIFFERENCE, IT WAS A FAILURE TO GET THIS LIFE-SAVING DRUG TO HER IN TIME.

ALL OF THESE THINGS CAME TOGETHER TO RESULT IN HER DEATH.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY SHE DIED ONLY OF TUBERCULOSIS.

I THINK SHE ALSO DIED OF HUMAN-BUILT SYSTEMS THAT SIMPLY DIDN'T INCLUDE PEOPLE LIKE HER.

>> HUH.

AND IN THIS RESEARCH, YOU FOUND KIND OF HISTORICAL CONNECTIONS TO YOUR OWN FAMILY.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> YEAH, MY GREAT UNCLE STOKES GOODRICH DIED OF TUBERCULOSIS.

WHEN I TOLD MY MOM I WAS WRITING ABOUT TUBERCULOSIS, SHE SAID, THAT'S WHAT YOUR GREAT UNCLE DIED OF.

I UNEARTHED A MEMOIR THAT TELLS HIS STORY.

HE WAS A LINEWORKER AND ENDED UP DYING, LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE, IN A SAN OR THE YUM, IN 1930.

>> YOU KIND OF POINT OUT THAT, YOU KNOW, AS THE --AS THE TITLE SAYS, THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT TUBERCULOSIS HAS IMPACTED SOCIETY.

ON THE ONE HAND, IT MIGHT HAVE LED TO THE BEGINNING OF WORLD WAR I, ON THE OTHER HAND, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THE REASON THAT TOWNS IN CALIFORNIA SPRUNG UP.

GIVE US THE SCOPE OF THESE PLACES THAT WE DON'T SEE TUBERCULOSIS IN THE HISTORY BOOKS, BUT IT CLEARLY PLAYED A ROLE.

>> YEAH, FROM PASADENA, CALIFORNIA, TO COLORADO SPRINGS, COLORADO, THERE ARE SO MANY CITIES IN THE AMERICAN WEST THAT WERE ESSENTIALLY FOUNDED AS TUBERCULOSIS COLONIES, BECAUSE AT THE TIME, IN THE 19th AND EARLY 20th CENTURY, IT WAS BELIEVED THAT HEADING WEST TOWARD DRIER AIR COULD SORT OF DRY OUT THE WET LUNGS OF TUBERCULOSIS.

CALIFORNIA CALLED ITSELF THE LAND OF NEW LUNGS.

AND THE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE THERE RIVALED THE GOLD RUSH.

IT WAS A REALLY SIGNIFICANT SHIFT IN OUR HUMAN GEOGRAPHY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

I ALSO ARGUE THAT TB WAS A CAUSE OF WORLD WAR I. I SHOULD SAY, LIKE, NOT THE PRIMARY CAUSE, BUT BOTH OF THE YOUNG MEN WHO ACTIVELY PARTICIPATED IN THE ASSASSINATION OF ARCH DUKE FRANCE FERDINAND WAS DYING OF TUBERCULOSIS AND KNEW THEY WERE DYING.

AS A RESULT, THEY WANTED TO DIE FOR A GREAT CAUSE.

>> YOU POINTED OUT THAT TWO OF THE THREE CONSPIRATORS WHO DIDN'T HAVE THAT DEATH ESSENTIAL TES, THEY CHICKENED OUT.

>> YEAH, THEY BAILED ON THE DAY.

THEY DECIDED THAT MAYBE IT WASN'T A GOOD IDEA TO ASSASSINATION THE ARCH DUKE, WHICH, OBVIOUSLY GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED, IT WASN'T.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN ONLINE IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, REALLY ACTIVE ABOUT THINKING ABOUT TUBERCULOSIS AND ADVOCATING ON ITS BEHALF, AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY POINTED IN YOUR CRITIQUE OF HOW THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY WORKS, AND WHY THIS DRUG THAT WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT, THAT THIS CURE THAT WE'VE HAD FOR SO LONG, IS STILL NOT ACCESSIBLE TO PEOPLE LIKE HENRY.

>> IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING FOR ME THAT WE HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEAL WITH THIS DISEASE, IT'S NOT ONLY A PROBLEM OF PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, IT'S ALSO A PROBLEM OF GOVERNMENTS, IT'S ALSO A PROBLEM OF, YOU KNOW, OUR NONPROFITS BEING AS EFFICIENT AS THEY CAN BE, BUT IT'S MOSTLY A PROBLEM OF GOVERNMENTS AND DEVELOPING THE TOOLS AND MAKING THOSE TOOLS AVAILABLE.

TOO OFTEN, WE DEVELOP TOOLS BUT DON'T MAKE THEM AVAILABLE IN THE PLACES WHERE THEY'RE MOST NEEDED.

IN 2000, A DOCTOR FAMOUSLY SAID OF HIV, WHERE ARE THE DRUGS?

THE DRUGS ARE WHERE THE DISEASE IS NOT, AND WHERE IS THE DISEASE?

THE DISEASE IS WHERE THE DRUGS ARE NOT.

AND THAT'S VERY MUCH THE CASE FOR TUBERCULOSIS.

THE CURE IS WHERE THE DISEASE IS NOT.

AND THAT'S INFURIATING TO ME.

IF WE REALLY VALUE ALL HUMAN LIVES EQUALLY, WE SIMPLY HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB OF GETTING THESE CURES TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED THEM.

>> I'M ASSUMING FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU, YOU LOVE THE UNKNOWN FACT THAT KIND OF MAKES YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

BUT WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU KIND OF STUMBLED UPON IN THIS THAT YOU ENDED UP INCLUDING IN THE BOOK, BUT ALSO, THAT JUST KIND OF CHANGED YOUR FRAME OF REFERENCE ON HOW YOU THOUGHT ABOUT EITHER THE DISEASE OR THE INJUSTICES OF THE WORLD?

>> THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS I'VE LEARNED IN THIS JOURNEY THAT HAVE HELPED ME UNDERSTAND AND CONTEXTUALIZE THE WAY THAT INJUSTICE WORKS IN OUR WORLD, AND THE WAY THAT HEALTH AND EQUITY BECOMES A FORM AND EXPRESSION OF INJUSTICE.

I THINK THE MOST SHOCKING STATISTIC TO ME IS THAT SINCE TUBERCULOSIS BECAME CURABLE, WE'VE ALLOWED AT LEAST 150 MILLION PEOPLE TO DIE OF IT.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT US?

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE WORLD WE SHARE?

AND WHAT -- HOW DOES IT POINT TO A WORLD WE MIGHT SHARE THAT MIGHT BE BETTER FOR THOSE PEOPLE?

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT, IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, WE'VE SEEN AN ENORMOUS RETREAT FROM THE U. S. GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF TUBERCULOSIS TREATMENT THAT WE HELP FUND WORLDWIDE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CONSEQUENCES ARE GOING TO BE OF THESE ACTIONS?

>> THE CONSEQUENCES ARE ALREADY PROFOUND, AND THEY WILL BECOME EVEN MORE PROFOUND OVER TIME, UNFORTUNATELY.

THE UNITED STATES HAS LONG BEEN THE MOST GENEROUS SUPPORTER OF THE FIGHT AGAINST TUBERCULOSIS, AND A KEY ALLY IN EVERY COUNTRY THAT'S FIGHTING THE DISEASE.

IN A COUNTRY LIKE SIERRA LEONE, YOU KNOW, THE --WITHOUT USAID MONEY, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE LOSING ACCESS TO THEIR TREATMENT.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE SEEING THEIR TREATMENT INTERRUPTED, WHICH MEANS SKYROCKETING RISKS OF INCREASED DRUG RESISTANCE.

WE KNOW THAT HAVING DRUG RESISTANT TUBERCULOSIS CIRCULATING IN COMMUNITIES IS VERY BAD NEWS.

IT'S BAD NEWS FOR INDIVIDUALS, BUT IT IS ALSO VERY DANGEROUS FOR SOCIAL WORKERS AS A WHOLE, BECAUSE WE COULD GET A FORM OF TUBERCULOSIS THAT NO LONGER RESPONDS TO THE TOOLS THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED TO FIGHT IT.

THAT'S SCARY.

IT SHOULD SCARE US.

AND IT IS DEVASTATING TO WATCH THIS UNFOLD.

I MEAN -- I NEVER IMAGINED I WOULD BE PUBLISHING THIS BOOK AT A TIME WHERE IT'S SO TIMELY.

I NEVER --I NEVER THOUGHT THE WORLD WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT TUBERCULOSIS, BUT IT IS, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, THE MACHINERY THAT WE USE TO GET TB TREATMENT TO PEOPLE HAS JUST GROUND TO A HALT AS A RESULT OF THESE SPENDING CUTS.

>> SO, I KNOW THAT THERE ARE DRUG RESISTANT VERSIONS OF TB IN DIFFERENT POCKETS OF THE WORLD, I KNOW IN IRAN, INDIA, THERE ARE PLACES --I WONDER, DO WE HAVE, LIKE, IF WE START TO STRIP AWAY SOME OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT CAN EVEN TRACK AND TRACE WHERE EXPLOSIONS OF TUBERCULOSIS MIGHT BE HAPPENING, THEN THERE SEEMS TO BE AN INCREASED LIKELIHOOD, THEN, THAT THERE MIGHT BE MORE DRUG RESISTANT STRAINS THAT MAKE THEIR WAY THROUGH COMMUNITIES, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT REALLY WATCHING THEM AND WE INTERRUPTED THE COURSES OF TREATMENT THAT MIGHT STOP THEM.

>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT, AND A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT WE'VE STOPPED TREATING PEOPLE WITH TUBERCULOSIS, WE HAVE ALSO STOPPED COUNTING HOW MANY PEOPLE AREN'T BEING TREATED WITH TUBERCULOSIS.

AND SO THERE WILL BE AN UNFOLD AMOUNT OF SUFFERING THAT RESULTS FROM THIS DECISION, BUT IN SOME CASES, WE WON'T UNDERSTAND THE FULL SCOPE OF THAT DEVASTATION FOR DECADES, BECAUSE WE'VE SIMPLY STOPPED COUNTING.

>> IT WAS ALSO INTERESTING TO ME READING THE BOOK WAS JUST THE KIND OF BIOLOGY OF HOW IT WORKS, WHICH I DIDN'T FRANKLY REALLY KNOW.

WHAT YOU POINT OUT IS REALLY HOW THIS THING DEVELOPS IN OUR BODY, AND HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE IT, AND THEY JUST --IT'S JUST LATENT.

AND IT'S KIND OF -- OUR BODY KEEPS IT AT BAY.

BUT FOR SOME PEOPLE, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

>> YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

TUBERCULOSIS DIVIDES INCREDIBLY SLOWLY FOR A BACTERIA.

HUNDREDS OF TIMES SLOWER THAN SOMETHING LIKE E. COLI, BECAUSE IT HAS THIS THICK, FATTY CELL WALL THAT MAKES IT REALLY HARD TO PENETRATE.

SO, IT'S BOTH VERY SLOW- MOVING AND HARD TO KILL.

THE BODIES DEAL WITH THAT IS SURROUND THE BACTERIA WITH WHITE CELLS.

AND THOSE CAN HOLD THE INFECTION IN CHECK FOR A LIFETIME.

USUALLY, IN FACT.

SOMETHING LIKE 25% OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW HAVE EXPERIENCED A TUBERCULOSIS INFECTION, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM WILL NEVER GET SICK.

WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO BECOME SICK, BUT WE KNOW THERE ARE IMPORTANT RISK FACTORS THAT INCLUDE MALNUTRITION, HIV INFECTION, OTHER HEALTH CONDITIONS LIKE DIABETES, SO, ALL THOSE ARE RISK FACTORS FOR DEVELOPING ACTIVE DISEASE, BUT A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE DEVELOP ACTIVE DISEASE AND WE STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY.

>> SO, WHAT ARE YOU ALSO KIND OF POINTING OUT, IT'S NOT JUST THE FACT THAT WE COULD GET A MEDICINE IN, BUT THERE'S THIS WHOLISTIC APPROACH, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT MAKES A PERSON SICK.

IF YOU DECREASES YOUR CHANCES OF HIV TRANSMISSION, OR IABETES, YOU ARE GOING TO DECREASE YOUR CHANCES OF DYING FROM TUBERCULOSIS.

THOSE ARE ALL KIND OF BIG SOVIET SOCIETAL ISSUES TO WRAP OUR HEADS AROUND.

>> WE CAN'T SEPARATE ANY DISEASE OF INJUSTICE FROM ITS BIOMEDICAL NATURE AND SOCIAL NATURE.

I ARGUE IN THE BOOK THAT THE WAY WE IMAGINE ILLNESS IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE NATURE OF THE ILLNESS ITSELF, BECAUSE WE ARE VERY POWERFUL AS A SPECIES, AND SO, HOW WE IMAGINE ILLNESS SHAPES HOW PEOPLE LIVE AND DIE OF THOSE ILLNESSES, BUT IT ALSO SHAPES WHO ENDS UP LIVING AND DYING OF THOSE ILLNESSES.

>> SO, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS A WAY KIND OF FORWARD?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE ON A BOOK TOUR RIGHT NOW, AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS, WHAT DO YOU HOPE PEOPLE TAKE AWAY?

>> WELL, I HOPE PEOPLE FEEL HOPEFUL AT THE END OF THE BOOK, WHICH, I KNOW IS A LITTLE BIT HARD TO COME BY FOR A LOT OF FOLKS RIGHT NOW, BUT I REALLY WANTED TO WRITE A HOPEFUL BOOK, BECAUSE I THINK THE STORY OF TUBERCULOSIS IS HOPEFUL, AND THAT IT CAN BE MORE HOPEFUL.

YOU KNOW, THE YEAR I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL, ABOUT 2.

7 MILLION PEOPLE DIED FROM TUBERCULOSIS.

LAST YEAR, 1.

25 MILLION DID.

NOW, ALL OF THOSE DEATHS WERE NEEDLESS, BUT THE FACT THAT WE'VE REDUED THE DEATHS BY OVER 50% SINCE I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL SHOULD BE A SOURCE OF HOPE FOR US, BECAUSE THAT PROGRESS WASN'T NATURAL, IT WASN'T INEVITABLE, IT WASN'T ALWAYS GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT HAPPENED BECAUSE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING MILLIONS OF TAXPAYERS, CAME TOGETHER TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN AND TOGETHER, WE ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY.

NOW, WE CAN REDUCE TUBERCULOSIS BY ANOTHER 50%, OR 99%, IF WE WANT TO, BUT WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE WANT TO.

WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE'RE GOING TO VALUE THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKELY TO GET TUBERCULOSIS, JUST AS WE WOULD VALUE MY BROTHER'S LIFE, OR MY LIFE.

>> AND SO, HOW DO YOU CONVINCE GOVERNMENTS, HOSPITALS, COMMUNITIES, TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY?

BECAUSE, IN A WAY, OBVIOUSLY, THE WHOLE WORLD PAID ATTENTION TO COVID, AS THEY RIGHTFULLY SHOULD HAVE, BUT TUBERCULOSIS, AS YOU POINT OUT, IS KILLING MORE PEOPLE ON AN ANNUAL BASIS, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHY WE JUST KIND OF LET IT DRIFT.

>> YEAH, WE ACCEPT IT.

BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO.

I THINK HUMAN ATTENTION IS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL.

WHEN WE PAY ATTENTION TO PROBLEMS, WE ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO SOLVE THEM.

THINK OF THE WAY THAT WE --THINK OF WHEN WE STARTED PAYING ATTENTION TO, IN THE RICH WORLD, TO THE PROBLEM OF IV/AIDS IN IMPOVERISHED COMMUNITIES.

WE'VE SAVED OVER 25 MILLION LIVES IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLE ACCOMPLISHMENT.

IF WE CAN HAVE A SIMILAR SUPPORT FOR TUBERCULOSIS, WE CAN SEE SIMILAR RESULTS, IF WE FUND THINGS LIKE THE GLOBAL FUND, IF WE FUND THINGS LIKE USAID, IF OTHER COUNTRIES STEP UP AND HELP US IN THAT FIGHT, ALL OF THAT CAN COME TOGETHER TO LEAD TO A WORLD WITHOUT TUBERCULOSIS, BUT IT DOES REQUIRE POLITICAL WILL AND RESOURCES.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "EVERYTHING IS TUBERCULOSIS. "

JOHN GREEN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SOME OF THE STRONGEST OVERSEAS REACTION TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS COMING FROM FRANCE.

FRENCH EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER IS MAKING HEADLINES FOR SUGGESTING THE U.S. SHOULD DELIVER THE STATUE OF LIBERTY BACK TO FRANCE.

HE SAYS THE U.S. IS NO LONGER WORTHY OF THE MONUMENT, WHICH IT GOT FROM FRANCE BACK IN 1886, AS A GIFT.

>> Translator: TO THE AMERICANS, WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO SIDE WITH THE TYRANTS, TO THE AMERICANS, WHO SAY RESEARCHERS MUST HAVE THIS PROOF OF SCIENTIFIC FREEDOM, WE'RE GOING TO SAY TWO THINGS TO THE AMERICANS -- FIRST, GIVE US BACK THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

>> THE WHITE HOUSE SWIFTLY HIT BACK.

>> MY ADVICE TO THAT UNNAMED LOW LEVEL FRENCH POLITICIAN WOULD BE TO REMIND THEM THAT IT'S ONLY BECAUSE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT THE FRENCH ARE NOT SPEAKING GERMAN RIGHT NOW, SO, THEY SHOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL TO OUR GREAT COUNTRY.

>> IN FACT, ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WE SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL FOR IS THOSE WHO FOUGHT IN THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN.

JOHN PADDY HEMINGWAY, THE LAST SURVIVING PILOT, HAS DIED AT THE AGE OF 105.

HE JOINED THE ROYAL AIR FORCE AS A TEENAGER BEFORE WORLD WAR II, TAKING TO THE SKIES TO DEFEND BRITAIN FROM THE NAZI INVASION.

A POIGNANT REMINDER OF THE SACRIFICES MADE IN THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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