FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON "TO THE >> THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY," FIRST, CAN CONTRARY," FIRST, CAN SELF-CONSISTENCE BREAK THE GLASS SELF-CONSISTENCE BREAK THE GLASS CEILING?

CEILING?

THEN, GIRLS EXCUSING SEXUAL THEN, GIRLS EXCUSING SEXUAL ASSAULT.

ASSAULT.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES, WHY THIS BEHIND THE HEADLINES, WHY THIS AUTHOR CALLS HERSELF A “JESUS AUTHOR CALLS HERSELF A “JESUS FEMINIST.” HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE CONFIDENCE GAP.

UP FIRST, THE CONFIDENCE GAP.

WOMEN ON AVERAGE UNDERESTIMATE WOMEN ON AVERAGE UNDERESTIMATE THEIR ABILITY, WHILE MEN THEIR ABILITY, WHILE MEN OVERESTIMATE THEIR COMPETENCE.

OVERESTIMATE THEIR COMPETENCE.

COULD THIS EXPLAIN WHY WOMEN ARE COULD THIS EXPLAIN WHY WOMEN ARE UNDERREPRESENTED IN THE UPPER UNDERREPRESENTED IN THE UPPER ECHELONS OF BUSINESS AND MAKE ECHELONS OF BUSINESS AND MAKE LESS MONEY OVERALL THAN MEN?

LESS MONEY OVERALL THAN MEN?

THAT'S THE ARGUMENT PUT FORTH BY THAT'S THE ARGUMENT PUT FORTH BY JOURNALISTS KATTY KAY AND CLAIRE JOURNALISTS KATTY KAY AND CLAIRE SHIPMAN IN A NEW BOOK THE SHIPMAN IN A NEW BOOK THE CONFIDENCE CODE.

CONFIDENCE CODE.

>> KAY: WHAT WE REALLY WANTED TO >> KAY: WHAT WE REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS ON, THIS ISSUE OF FOCUS ON, THIS ISSUE OF SELF-ASSURANCE, WHY WOMEN SEEM SELF-ASSURANCE, WHY WOMEN SEEM TO HOLD THEMSELVES BACK BECAUSE TO HOLD THEMSELVES BACK BECAUSE THEY LACK CONFIDENCE.

THEY LACK CONFIDENCE.

>> CONFIDENCE IS TO SOME EXTENT >> CONFIDENCE IS TO SOME EXTENT GENETIC.

GENETIC.

SOME PEOPLE THINK 25% SOME SOME PEOPLE THINK 25% SOME STUDIES HAVE ESTIMATED IT COULD STUDIES HAVE ESTIMATED IT COULD IT UP TO 50% GENETIC.

IT UP TO 50% GENETIC.

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE A THAT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE A NUMBERCH GENES THAT AFFECT NUMBERCH GENES THAT AFFECT THINGS IN THE BRAIN LIKE THINGS IN THE BRAIN LIKE SEROTONIN, AND DOPAMINE THAT SEROTONIN, AND DOPAMINE THAT REALLY SMART STUDENTS ARE REALLY SMART STUDENTS ARE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND AFFECT STARTING TO UNDERSTAND AFFECT THINGS LIKE CONFIDENCE.

THINGS LIKE CONFIDENCE.

>> WOMEN OUTNUMBER MEN IN HIGHER >> WOMEN OUTNUMBER MEN IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND MAKE UP 50% OF THE EDUCATION AND MAKE UP 50% OF THE WORKFORCE.

WORKFORCE.

BUT MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO ASK BUT MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO ASK RAISES OR APPLY FOR PROMOTIONS RAISES OR APPLY FOR PROMOTIONS EVEN IF THEY ARE UNQUALIFIED.

EVEN IF THEY ARE UNQUALIFIED.

>> I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING >> I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING MANY WOMEN HAVE FELT, THAT MEN MANY WOMEN HAVE FELT, THAT MEN SEEM TO BE MORE CONFIDENT THAN SEEM TO BE MORE CONFIDENT THAN WOMEN.

WOMEN.

PUT NOW THAT THEY HAVE THE DATA.

PUT NOW THAT THEY HAVE THE DATA.

HEWLETT PACKARD HAS DONE ONE HEWLETT PACKARD HAS DONE ONE STUDY THAT SHOWS THAT WOMEN WILL STUDY THAT SHOWS THAT WOMEN WILL APPLY FOR A PROMOTION IF THEY APPLY FOR A PROMOTION IF THEY HAVE 100% OF THE SKILLSET.

HAVE 100% OF THE SKILLSET.

MEN FEEL IT'S FINE TO APPLY WITH MEN FEEL IT'S FINE TO APPLY WITH JUST 60% OF THE SKILLSET BECAUSE JUST 60% OF THE SKILLSET BECAUSE WHY NOT?

WHY NOT?

THEY CAN LEARN THE REST ON THE THEY CAN LEARN THE REST ON THE JOB.

JOB.

>> THERE'S A PART OF OUR BRAIN >> THERE'S A PART OF OUR BRAIN CALLED THE WORRY WART CENTER.

CALLED THE WORRY WART CENTER.

IT'S BEEN DUBBED THAT.

IT'S BEEN DUBBED THAT.

IT'S THE ANTERIOR CINGULATE IT'S THE ANTERIOR CINGULATE GYRUS.

GYRUS.

AND WOMEN USE THAT MUCH MORE AND WOMEN USE THAT MUCH MORE THAN MEN DO.

THAN MEN DO.

>> WRITING FOR THE ATLANTIC, KAY >> WRITING FOR THE ATLANTIC, KAY AND SHIPMAN INTERVIEWED TOP AND SHIPMAN INTERVIEWED TOP WOMEN FROM DIVERSE FIELDS SUCH WOMEN FROM DIVERSE FIELDS SUCH AS SPORTS AND BUSINESS.

AS SPORTS AND BUSINESS.

THESE WOMEN FREQUENTLY FELT THEY THESE WOMEN FREQUENTLY FELT THEY DID NOT DESERVE THEIR SUCCESS.

DID NOT DESERVE THEIR SUCCESS.

>> WEEP FOUND THAT TO SOME >> WEEP FOUND THAT TO SOME EXTENT THERE WAS A LACK OF EXTENT THERE WAS A LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN A LOT OF WOMEN CONFIDENCE IN A LOT OF WOMEN THAT WE WOULD NOT HAVE EXPECTED.

THAT WE WOULD NOT HAVE EXPECTED.

>> CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, IS THAT >> CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, IS THAT THE CASE?

THE CASE?

IS IT LACK OF CONFIDENCE THAT'S IS IT LACK OF CONFIDENCE THAT'S HOLDING WOMEN BACK?

HOLDING WOMEN BACK?

>> NO, BONNY.

>> NO, BONNY.

WOMEN MAY HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE WOMEN MAY HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE BUT SEXISM REMAINS THE DOMINANT BUT SEXISM REMAINS THE DOMINANT FORCE THE WORLD OVER.

FORCE THE WORLD OVER.

>> I THINK IT'S GREAT HAVING >> I THINK IT'S GREAT HAVING THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE I THINK THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE I THINK THE LACK OF CONFIDENCE PLAYS THE LACK OF CONFIDENCE PLAYS MUCH ARE LARGER ROLE THAN IN THE MUCH ARE LARGER ROLE THAN IN THE PAST WE HAVE GIVEN IT CREDIT PAST WE HAVE GIVEN IT CREDIT FOR.

FOR.

>> I THINK WOMEN ARE RESPONDING >> I THINK WOMEN ARE RESPONDING TO THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TO THE WORLD WE LIVE IN REALISTICALLY AND WE NEED TO REALISTICALLY AND WE NEED TO SHORE UP THE WOMEN TO OVERCOME SHORE UP THE WOMEN TO OVERCOME THESE FORCES THAT SAP THEIR THESE FORCES THAT SAP THEIR CONFIDENCE.

CONFIDENCE.

>> I LIKE TO QUOTE JAMES WHO >> I LIKE TO QUOTE JAMES WHO SAID IT'S THE CULTURAL CULTURE, SAID IT'S THE CULTURAL CULTURE, STUPID.

STUPID.

WOMEN ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WOMEN ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE AT A DISADVANTAGE.

BE AT A DISADVANTAGE.

>> I HONESTLY THINK THE >> I HONESTLY THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS HOW A FATHER DIFFERENCE IS HOW A FATHER TREATS A DAUGHTER BECAUSE IF A TREATS A DAUGHTER BECAUSE IF A FATHER TREATS YOU LIKE YOU'RE FATHER TREATS YOU LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GO OUT IN THE WORLD SUPPOSED TO GO OUT IN THE WORLD AND WORK LIKE HE DID, THAT AND WORK LIKE HE DID, THAT REALLY, MOST OF THE WOMEN I KNOW REALLY, MOST OF THE WOMEN I KNOW WHO HAVE HAD BIG CAREERS HAD WHO HAVE HAD BIG CAREERS HAD FATHERS WHO WERE REALLY FATHERS WHO WERE REALLY SUPPORTIVE OF THEM AND BELIEVED SUPPORTIVE OF THEM AND BELIEVED IN THEM.

IN THEM.

>> I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD >> I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT BUT REMEMBER, ON ONE OF POINT BUT REMEMBER, ON ONE OF YOUR OWN SHOWS, BONNIE, WOMEN YOUR OWN SHOWS, BONNIE, WOMEN EARN LESS THAN THEIR FATHERS EARN LESS THAN THEIR FATHERS DID, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD CHOSEN DID, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD CHOSEN PROFESSIONS -- PROFESSIONS -- >> BECAUSE NOT ALLEN WOMEN HAVE >> BECAUSE NOT ALLEN WOMEN HAVE FATHERS, FIRST OF ALL, NOT ALL FATHERS, FIRST OF ALL, NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE TWO PARENTS, AND WOMEN HAVE TWO PARENTS, AND SECONDLY, NOT ALL FATHERS ARE SECONDLY, NOT ALL FATHERS ARE GOOD FATHERS.

GOOD FATHERS.

>> I LOVE BLAMING IT ON THE >> I LOVE BLAMING IT ON THE FATHERS.

FATHERS.

>> NO, I THINK THAT THAT'S PART >> NO, I THINK THAT THAT'S PART OF IT.

OF IT.

I THINK THAT THERE IS -- YOU CAN I THINK THAT THERE IS -- YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN YOUNG SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN YOUNG GIRLS WHERE CONFIDENCE STARTS TO GIRLS WHERE CONFIDENCE STARTS TO COLLAPSE IN ADOLESCENCE, AND I COLLAPSE IN ADOLESCENCE, AND I COACHED GIRLS FOR MANY YEARS AND COACHED GIRLS FOR MANY YEARS AND I FEEL LIKE SPORTS FOR GIRLS AND I FEEL LIKE SPORTS FOR GIRLS AND JUST A CULTURAL SPACE WHERE JUST A CULTURAL SPACE WHERE GIRLS CAN BE COMPETITIVE AND GIRLS CAN BE COMPETITIVE AND JOYFUL AND MAINTAIN THAT GREAT JOYFUL AND MAINTAIN THAT GREAT FEELING ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT FEELING ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT THEY HAVE WHEN THEY'RE LITTLE THEY HAVE WHEN THEY'RE LITTLE GIRLS IS SO CRITICAL.

GIRLS IS SO CRITICAL.

>> YOU HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS.

>> YOU HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS.

>> I HAVE THREE GIRLS.

>> I HAVE THREE GIRLS.

>> DO YOU SEE THAT IN EACH OF >> DO YOU SEE THAT IN EACH OF THEM?

THEM?

>> I DO.

>> I DO.

I SEE A LOT OF JOY IN THEM.

I SEE A LOT OF JOY IN THEM.

ACTUALLY I HAVE TO SPEAK UP FOR ACTUALLY I HAVE TO SPEAK UP FOR MOTHERS, TOO, BECAUSE I THINK MOTHERS, TOO, BECAUSE I THINK THAT IF THEY SEE THAT WOMEN CAN THAT IF THEY SEE THAT WOMEN CAN HAVE FULFILLING CAREERS AND ALSO HAVE FULFILLING CAREERS AND ALSO BE GREAT MOTHERS AND THEY FIELD BE GREAT MOTHERS AND THEY FIELD KIND OF BUOYED IN WHO THEY ARE, KIND OF BUOYED IN WHO THEY ARE, I FEEL LIKE MY MOTHER GAVE ME I FEEL LIKE MY MOTHER GAVE ME THAT.

THAT.

SHE LOVED ME AND MADE ME FEEL SHE LOVED ME AND MADE ME FEEL WONDERFUL ABOUT MYSELF, AND IT WONDERFUL ABOUT MYSELF, AND IT TOOK ME A LONG TO TAKE IN THE TOOK ME A LONG TO TAKE IN THE REALLY TOXIC MESSAGES FROM THE REALLY TOXIC MESSAGES FROM THE MORE MALE DOMINATED CULTURE MORE MALE DOMINATED CULTURE ABOUT BODY EM IMAGE.

ABOUT BODY EM IMAGE.

I THINK YOU CAN CREATE A CLIMATE I THINK YOU CAN CREATE A CLIMATE THAT SHORES GIRLS UP.

THAT SHORES GIRLS UP.

>> BUT THAY WHAT PLAYS OUT HERE, >> BUT THAY WHAT PLAYS OUT HERE, TOO, IS STUDIES SHOW DIFFERENT TOO, IS STUDIES SHOW DIFFERENT HORMONES PLAY A ROLE, MEN AND HORMONES PLAY A ROLE, MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.

WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT.

YOU CAN MAKE UP FOR A LOT OF YOU CAN MAKE UP FOR A LOT OF THAT IF YOU CHOOSE TO, BUT EVEN THAT IF YOU CHOOSE TO, BUT EVEN AFTER TITLE IX, THAT LEVELED THE AFTER TITLE IX, THAT LEVELED THE PLAYING FIELD ON SPORTS.

PLAYING FIELD ON SPORTS.

WHAT YOU FOUND WAS THAT EVEN WHAT YOU FOUND WAS THAT EVEN THOUGH MORE GIRLS GOT INVOLVED THOUGH MORE GIRLS GOT INVOLVED EARLY THAT'S EVENTUALLY DROPPED EARLY THAT'S EVENTUALLY DROPPED OUT.

OUT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY BECAUSE THEY SOME PEOPLE SAY BECAUSE THEY LACKED CONFIDENCE OR COULD IT BE LACKED CONFIDENCE OR COULD IT BE THEY START TAKING OTHER INTEREST THEY START TAKING OTHER INTEREST IN THINGS THAN SPORTS AND GUYS IN THINGS THAN SPORTS AND GUYS DIDN'T.

DIDN'T.

THINGS LIKE SPORTS CAN BUILD THINGS LIKE SPORTS CAN BUILD YOUR CONFIDENCE BUT YOU GET USED YOUR CONFIDENCE BUT YOU GET USED TO THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE THAT YOU TO THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE THAT YOU ALSO SEE IN THE BUSINESS ALSO SEE IN THE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT.

ENVIRONMENT.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT SO I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF HORMONES INVOLVED AS WELL.

OF HORMONES INVOLVED AS WELL.

>> AS A BOARD MEMBER OF LARGE >> AS A BOARD MEMBER OF LARGE CORPORATIONS, AS FORMER CHAIR OF CORPORATIONS, AS FORMER CHAIR OF THE EEOC, HOW DO YOU SEE IT FROM THE EEOC, HOW DO YOU SEE IT FROM THE CORPORATE PERSPECTIVE?

THE CORPORATE PERSPECTIVE?

>> WELL, I THINK HE NEED TO STOP >> WELL, I THINK HE NEED TO STOP ANALYZING WOMEN AND START ANALYZING WOMEN AND START ANALYZING OUR SOCIETY AND OUR ANALYZING OUR SOCIETY AND OUR SOCIETY'S VALUES BECAUSE WHEN I SOCIETY'S VALUES BECAUSE WHEN I WAS INVOLVED WITH THE GLASS WAS INVOLVED WITH THE GLASS CEILING INITIATIVE IT WAS LIKE, CEILING INITIATIVE IT WAS LIKE, WELL, WOMEN JUST DON'T HAVE THE WELL, WOMEN JUST DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TYPE OF EDUCATION.

RIGHT TYPE OF EDUCATION.

SO THEY WENT AND THEY GOT THEIR SO THEY WENT AND THEY GOT THEIR M.B.A.s.

M.B.A.s.

DON'T HAVE RIGHT EXPERIENCE OR DON'T HAVE RIGHT EXPERIENCE OR THEY -- WELL, WHY YOU HAVE GOT THEY -- WELL, WHY YOU HAVE GOT WORK AND FAMILY.

WORK AND FAMILY.

THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING.

THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING.

NOW IT'S THE CONFIDENCE CODE.

NOW IT'S THE CONFIDENCE CODE.

I REALLY THINK A A CULTURAL I REALLY THINK A A CULTURAL CODE.

CODE.

AND WOMEN GO TO ANALYSTS A LOT AND WOMEN GO TO ANALYSTS A LOT MORE OFTEN THAN THE MEN DO MORE OFTEN THAN THE MEN DO BECAUSE WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?

BECAUSE WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?

WE INTERNALIZE EVERYTHING.

WE INTERNALIZE EVERYTHING.

>> I THINK THAT'S SO TRUE.

>> I THINK THAT'S SO TRUE.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE >> TELL ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS BOOK AND "LEAN IN."

BETWEEN THIS BOOK AND "LEAN IN."

>> WELL, I AM ONE OF CHERYL >> WELL, I AM ONE OF CHERYL SANDBERG'S DEFEND ORES HAD "LEAN SANDBERG'S DEFEND ORES HAD "LEAN IN."

IN."

SHE CAUGHT A LOT OF FLACK.

SHE CAUGHT A LOT OF FLACK.

AND BOTH OF THESE BOOKS NEXT ON AND BOTH OF THESE BOOKS NEXT ON ON WOMEN IN THE HIGH INCOME ON WOMEN IN THE HIGH INCOME SCALE.

SCALE.

WE HAVE A SOCIETY THAT LOOKS WE HAVE A SOCIETY THAT LOOKS THIRD WORLD AND TALKING ABOUT THIRD WORLD AND TALKING ABOUT HOW PEOPLE ARE STRUNG AND WE ARE HOW PEOPLE ARE STRUNG AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW ARE THE ELITE TALKING ABOUT HOW ARE THE ELITE DOING.

DOING.

ON THE OTHER HAND IT'S A ON THE OTHER HAND IT'S A COMBINATION.

COMBINATION.

CHERYL SANDBERG DESCRIBED THIS CHERYL SANDBERG DESCRIBED THIS AND THE PEOPLE SHE WORKS WITH, AND THE PEOPLE SHE WORKS WITH, HER FEMALE COLLEAGUES AND AND HER FEMALE COLLEAGUES AND AND HERSELF, THE COMBINATION OF HERSELF, THE COMBINATION OF TELLING GIRLS THEY'RE BOWS, AND TELLING GIRLS THEY'RE BOWS, AND THAT'S A BAD THING, SO THE THAT'S A BAD THING, SO THE CULTURE TELLS YOU TO BE DEMURE CULTURE TELLS YOU TO BE DEMURE AND THEN BLAMING WOMEN TO NOT AND THEN BLAMING WOMEN TO NOT HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO SPEAK UP HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO SPEAK UP FOR THEMSELVES.

FOR THEMSELVES.

>> THAT'S WHY I THINK NEGATIVE >> THAT'S WHY I THINK NEGATIVE DOES IMPACTING THERE WAS A DOES IMPACTING THERE WAS A RECENT SUDDEN STUDY THAT SHOWED RECENT SUDDEN STUDY THAT SHOWED IN THE METROPOLITAN CENTERS OF IN THE METROPOLITAN CENTERS OF THE COUNTRY YOUNG MEN AT THE THE COUNTRY YOUNG MEN AT THE SAME AGE OF YOUNG MEN ARE SAME AGE OF YOUNG MEN ARE OUTPERFORMING THEIR MALE OUTPERFORMING THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS IN TERMS OF WAGE, COUNTERPARTS IN TERMS OF WAGE, BUT IF REALITY IS A GALLUP POLL BUT IF REALITY IS A GALLUP POLL ALSO SHOWED THOSE SAME TYPE OF ALSO SHOWED THOSE SAME TYPE OF YOUNG WOMEN FELT THEY DIDN'T YOUNG WOMEN FELT THEY DIDN'T HAVE CONFIDENCE AND THEY WERE HAVE CONFIDENCE AND THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT ASKING FOR A RAISE WORRIED ABOUT ASKING FOR A RAISE AND THE LIKE, SO THEY'RE BEING AND THE LIKE, SO THEY'RE BEING TOLD YOU'RE IN SECOND PLACE, SO TOLD YOU'RE IN SECOND PLACE, SO MANY OF THEM THINK THEY ARE IN MANY OF THEM THINK THEY ARE IN SECONDLY PLACE EVEN THOUGH THEY SECONDLY PLACE EVEN THOUGH THEY ACTUALLY ARE IN FIRST PLACE.

ACTUALLY ARE IN FIRST PLACE.

IT'S MIXED MESSAGES.

IT'S MIXED MESSAGES.

>> RIGHT, IT'S A LOT OF MIXED >> RIGHT, IT'S A LOT OF MIXED MESSAGE, AND IN THE '60S, AND MESSAGE, AND IN THE '60S, AND '70S, THE SECOND WAVE OR THIRD '70S, THE SECOND WAVE OR THIRD WAVE FEMME THIM HAVE FILM, WAVE FEMME THIM HAVE FILM, WHENEVER WAVE IT WAS, WOMEN WHENEVER WAVE IT WAS, WOMEN TRULY -- THERE WERE NO WOMEN TRULY -- THERE WERE NO WOMEN C.E.O.

ORS ANYTHING CLOSE TO IT.

C.E.O.

ORS ANYTHING CLOSE TO IT.

MOST WOMEN, MOST WHITE WOMEN MOST WOMEN, MOST WHITE WOMEN ANYWAY WERE STAYING HOME ANYWAY WERE STAYING HOME FULL-TIME.

FULL-TIME.

AFRICAN-AMERICAN ALWAYS HAD TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN ALWAYS HAD TO WORK, WE KNOW THAT.

WORK, WE KNOW THAT.

BUT WERE DENIED ACCESS TO ANY BUT WERE DENIED ACCESS TO ANY KIND OF EDUCATION OR DECENT KIND OF EDUCATION OR DECENT JOBS.

JOBS.

AND NOW IT'S NOT QUITE LIKE THAT AND NOW IT'S NOT QUITE LIKE THAT ANYMORE.

ANYMORE.

I MEAN, WOMEN HAVE MADE I MEAN, WOMEN HAVE MADE ADVANCES.

ADVANCES.

>> IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU >> IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU POINTED TO THAT EARLIER PERIOD POINTED TO THAT EARLIER PERIOD WHEN WOMEN WERE VERY ASSERTIVE.

WHEN WOMEN WERE VERY ASSERTIVE.

WOMEN GOT TIRED OF BEING WOMEN GOT TIRED OF BEING REWARDED FOR BEING THE REWARDED FOR BEING THE STEREOTYPE OF WHAT WOMEN WERE STEREOTYPE OF WHAT WOMEN WERE SUPPOSED TO BE, THEY IMAGINED SUPPOSED TO BE, THEY IMAGINED AND REIMAGINED HOW THEY MIGHT AND REIMAGINED HOW THEY MIGHT BE.

BE.

THAT, HOWEVER, IS AN ALMOST THAT, HOWEVER, IS AN ALMOST REVOLUTIONARY P MINDSET.

REVOLUTIONARY P MINDSET.

AND WE REMEMBER THAT THERE WAS AND WE REMEMBER THAT THERE WAS THAT MINDSET THAT GOT WOMEN THE THAT MINDSET THAT GOT WOMEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE WHEN WOMEN, FOR RIGHT TO VOTE WHEN WOMEN, FOR EXAMPLE, PINNED THEMSELVES TO EXAMPLE, PINNED THEMSELVES TO THE GATES OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE GATES OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND THEN IT KIND OF WENT BACK.

THEN IT KIND OF WENT BACK.

SO IT'S THESE CONFIDENCE-RAISING SO IT'S THESE CONFIDENCE-RAISING PERIODS CAN ONLY BE SUSTAINED IF PERIODS CAN ONLY BE SUSTAINED IF THEY ARE REINFORCED.

THEY ARE REINFORCED.

AND I BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN AND I BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN REINFORCED BECAUSE FEMINISM CAME REINFORCED BECAUSE FEMINISM CAME ALONG AND TRIED ITS BEST TO DO ALONG AND TRIED ITS BEST TO DO SO.

SO.

BUT CERTAINLY NOT SUFFICIENTLY BUT CERTAINLY NOT SUFFICIENTLY WITH THESE CONFIDENCE GAPS THAT WITH THESE CONFIDENCE GAPS THAT WE ARE SEEING IN VERY YOUNG WE ARE SEEING IN VERY YOUNG WOMEN WHO OUGHT TO BE THE MOST WOMEN WHO OUGHT TO BE THE MOST CONFIDENT WOMEN IN THE WORLD.

CONFIDENT WOMEN IN THE WORLD.

>> THEY'RE BETTER EDUCATING E. >> THEY'RE BETTER EDUCATING E. EDUCATED, A LOT OF THINGS GOING EDUCATED, A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON, BUT I THINK THEY'RE HEARING ON, BUT I THINK THEY'RE HEARING A LOT OF THINGS, YOU'RE STILL IN A LOT OF THINGS, YOU'RE STILL IN SECOND PLACE, GUYS ARE STILL IN SECOND PLACE, GUYS ARE STILL IN ALL THE TOP; WHILE SOME OF ALL THE TOP; WHILE SOME OF THAT'S TRUE, THE MORE YOU TELL THAT'S TRUE, THE MORE YOU TELL PEOPLE THAT, THE MORE THEY THINK PEOPLE THAT, THE MORE THEY THINK THEY CAN'T BREAK THROUGH.

THEY CAN'T BREAK THROUGH.

>> THAT'S WHY IT DOES MATTER.

>> THAT'S WHY IT DOES MATTER.

THAT'S WHAT CHERYL IS SPAYING THAT'S WHAT CHERYL IS SPAYING DOES MATTER IF WE HAVE MORE DOES MATTER IF WE HAVE MORE WOMEN SENATORS ANDY C.E.O.

WOMEN SENATORS ANDY C.E.O.

FITZPATRICK WE HAVE GOT TO HAVE FITZPATRICK WE HAVE GOT TO HAVE A WORLD WHERE WOMEN CAN BE IN A WORLD WHERE WOMEN CAN BE IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AND WE JUST LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AND WE JUST ARE NOT THERE.

ARE NOT THERE.

>> THE WORLD REINFORCES THEIR >> THE WORLD REINFORCES THEIR NOTIONS OF THEIR OWN NOTIONS OF THEIR OWN INFERIORITY.

INFERIORITY.

IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE TOP OR IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE TOP OR EVEN IN MIDDLE MANAGEMENT IS EVEN IN MIDDLE MANAGEMENT IS BEGINNING TO MAKE HEADWAY, YOU BEGINNING TO MAKE HEADWAY, YOU JUST DON'T SEE THE ROLE MODELS JUST DON'T SEE THE ROLE MODELS THAT REINFORCE THE NOTION THAT THAT REINFORCE THE NOTION THAT IF YOU GET RID OF THIS LACK OF IF YOU GET RID OF THIS LACK OF CONFIDENCE OR WE ARE TOLD MEN CONFIDENCE OR WE ARE TOLD MEN HAVE OVERCONFIDENCE, THEN --.

HAVE OVERCONFIDENCE, THEN --.

>> I LOVED READING THAT.

>> I LOVED READING THAT.

>> YOU HAVE TO LIKE WOMEN FOR >> YOU HAVE TO LIKE WOMEN FOR NOT BEING THESE UNREALISTIC NOT BEING THESE UNREALISTIC BRAGGERS.

BRAGGERS.

>> THEY'RE MORE HUMBLE.

>> THEY'RE MORE HUMBLE.

>> AND THEY ROLL THEIR EYES.

>> AND THEY ROLL THEIR EYES.

YOU BRING A BETTER PERSPECTIVE YOU BRING A BETTER PERSPECTIVE INTO THE WORLD WHEN YOU BRING A INTO THE WORLD WHEN YOU BRING A LITTLE BIT OF REALISM ABOUT WHO LITTLE BIT OF REALISM ABOUT WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU NO KNOW.

YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU NO KNOW.

>> LET'S SAY MOST WOMEN LIKE >> LET'S SAY MOST WOMEN LIKE THAT.

THAT.

THERE ARE A FEW WHO ARE LIKE THERE ARE A FEW WHO ARE LIKE THAT.

THAT.

I ACTUALLY GREW UP NEXT TO ONE I ACTUALLY GREW UP NEXT TO ONE CAREER-LADDER-WISE AND SHE'S TOO CAREER-LADDER-WISE AND SHE'S TOO FAMOUS TO YOU WHAT HAPPENED.

FAMOUS TO YOU WHAT HAPPENED.

ANYWAY, LET US YOU WHAT THINK.

ANYWAY, LET US YOU WHAT THINK.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE.

@BONNIEERBE.

FROM LACKING CONFIDENCE TO FROM LACKING CONFIDENCE TO NORMALIZING ASSAULT.

NORMALIZING ASSAULT.

YOUNG WOMEN HAVE BECOME MORE YOUNG WOMEN HAVE BECOME MORE ACCEPTING OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT ACCEPTING OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND ASSAULT, ACCORDING TO A AND ASSAULT, ACCORDING TO A DISTURBING NEW STUDY.

DISTURBING NEW STUDY.

RESEARCHERS AT MARQUETTE RESEARCHERS AT MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY ANALYZED INTERVIEWS UNIVERSITY ANALYZED INTERVIEWS WITH 100 GIRLS AND YOUNG WOMEN WITH 100 GIRLS AND YOUNG WOMEN AGES THREE TO 17.

AGES THREE TO 17.

THE STUDY REVEALS YOUNG WOMEN THE STUDY REVEALS YOUNG WOMEN DON'T VIEW SEXUAL HARASSMENT AS DON'T VIEW SEXUAL HARASSMENT AS PARTICULARLY UNACCEPTABLE OR PARTICULARLY UNACCEPTABLE OR INAPPROPRIATE.

INAPPROPRIATE.

THEY BELIEVE IT'S A PART OF THEY BELIEVE IT'S A PART OF EVERYDAY LIFE, NOT A CRIMINAL EVERYDAY LIFE, NOT A CRIMINAL ACT, AND THEY EXCUSE IT WITH THE ACT, AND THEY EXCUSE IT WITH THE NOTION "BOYS WILL BE BOYS."

NOTION "BOYS WILL BE BOYS."

THE RESEARCH SUPPORTS WHAT THE RESEARCH SUPPORTS WHAT WOMEN'S ADVOCATES HAVE ARGUED WOMEN'S ADVOCATES HAVE ARGUED FOR YEARS, WOMEN UNDER-REPORT FOR YEARS, WOMEN UNDER-REPORT ABUSE.

ABUSE.

THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS, FEAR THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS, FEAR OF “SLUT-SHAMING,” THE BELIEF OF “SLUT-SHAMING,” THE BELIEF THAT MEN CAN'T HELP THEMSELVE THAT MEN CAN'T HELP THEMSELVE TRIVIALIZING ASSAULT AND TRIVIALIZING ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT, AND LACK OF TRUST IN HARASSMENT, AND LACK OF TRUST IN AUTHORITY FIGURES.

AUTHORITY FIGURES.

P. P. SO RUTH CONNIFF, WHERE IS THIS SO RUTH CONNIFF, WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?

COMING FROM?

HOW -- DO YOUR GIRLS THINK IT'S HOW -- DO YOUR GIRLS THINK IT'S OKAY TO BE RAPED AND BOYS WILL OKAY TO BE RAPED AND BOYS WILL BE BOYS?

BE BOYS?

>> NO, BUT MY GIRLS ARE YOUNG.

>> NO, BUT MY GIRLS ARE YOUNG.

I HAVA FIRST-GRADER, A FOURTH I HAVA FIRST-GRADER, A FOURTH GRADER AND A SEVENTH GRADER, AND GRADER AND A SEVENTH GRADER, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY WRONG THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY WRONG IN OUR CULTURE, AND I THINK IT IN OUR CULTURE, AND I THINK IT MAY HAVE TO DO WITH SORT OF THE MAY HAVE TO DO WITH SORT OF THE PORN INFILTRATING POPULAR PORN INFILTRATING POPULAR CULTURE TO THE DEGREE THAT IT CULTURE TO THE DEGREE THAT IT HAS AND ALSO -- HAS AND ALSO -- >> IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE >> IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET?

INTERNET?

>> I THINK MAYBE PARTLY.

>> I THINK MAYBE PARTLY.

I THINK THERE'S BE KIND OF A POP I THINK THERE'S BE KIND OF A POP CULTURE SETTING.

CULTURE SETTING.

BUT THE THING THAT JUST STRUCK BUT THE THING THAT JUST STRUCK ME SO MUCH IN READING ABOUT THIS ME SO MUCH IN READING ABOUT THIS IS WE KNOW THAT WE CAN BE EQUALS IS WE KNOW THAT WE CAN BE EQUALS WITH BOYS AND WITH MEN.

WITH BOYS AND WITH MEN.

I MEAN, I GREW UP AS PART OF A I MEAN, I GREW UP AS PART OF A SPORTS TEAM WITH BOYS WHO SPORTS TEAM WITH BOYS WHO CHEERED FOR GIRLS AND GIRLS WHO CHEERED FOR GIRLS AND GIRLS WHO CHEERED FOR THE BOYS.

CHEERED FOR THE BOYS.

WE KNOW WE CAN BE IN THE WE KNOW WE CAN BE IN THE WORKPLACE TOGETHER.

WORKPLACE TOGETHER.

WE KNOW THAT MEN ARE NOT JUST WE KNOW THAT MEN ARE NOT JUST DYING TO RAPE US ALL THE TIME, DYING TO RAPE US ALL THE TIME, AND THERE ARE CULTURE WHERE AND THERE ARE CULTURE WHERE PEOPLE REALLY BELIEVE THAT.

PEOPLE REALLY BELIEVE THAT.

BELIEVE GIRLS CAN'T TO GO SCHOOL BELIEVE GIRLS CAN'T TO GO SCHOOL WITH BOYS.

WITH BOYS.

THEY BELIEVE MEN ARE THESE THEY BELIEVE MEN ARE THESE PREDATORS AND THAT'S NATURAL AND PREDATORS AND THAT'S NATURAL AND TO BE ACCEPTED AND THEY ACCEPT TO BE ACCEPTED AND THEY ACCEPT THAT.

THAT.

AND WE JUST CANNOT PER PET SHATE AND WE JUST CANNOT PER PET SHATE THAT.

THAT.

WE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR A WE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR A SOCIETY IN WHICH MEN AND WOMEN SOCIETY IN WHICH MEN AND WOMEN CAN BE FRIEND AND COLLEAGUES AND CAN BE FRIEND AND COLLEAGUES AND WE CAN BE EQUAL.

WE CAN BE EQUAL.

WE KNOW IT'S POSSIBLE.

WE KNOW IT'S POSSIBLE.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY I >> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY I THINK THAT'S TIED INTO THE WHOLE THINK THAT'S TIED INTO THE WHOLE BULLYING PIECE BECAUSE WHEN YOU BULLYING PIECE BECAUSE WHEN YOU BULLY WOMEN OR ARE GIRLS INTO BULLY WOMEN OR ARE GIRLS INTO COMPLIANCE, YOU SAY IF YOU DON'T COMPLIANCE, YOU SAY IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, I'M GOING TO COME AND DO THIS, I'M GOING TO COME AND RAPE YOU, I'M GOING TO COME TO RAPE YOU, I'M GOING TO COME TO YOUR HOUSE -- I THINK ALL OF YOUR HOUSE -- I THINK ALL OF THAT HAS JUST BECOME SUCH A NORM THAT HAS JUST BECOME SUCH A NORM NOW WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIA, NOW WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIA, WHEN YOU LOOK AT VIDEO GAMES AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT VIDEO GAMES AND THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, IT JUST -- IT'S DEALING WITH, IT JUST -- IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S AN ACCEPTABLE ALMOST LIKE IT'S AN ACCEPTABLE TYPE OF THING, AND IT'S THE TYPE OF THING, AND IT'S THE GIRLS THAT HAVE GOT TO SAY, WE GIRLS THAT HAVE GOT TO SAY, WE HAVE TO FEND FOR OURSELVES, AND HAVE TO FEND FOR OURSELVES, AND BOYS WILL BE BOWS.

BOYS WILL BE BOWS.

>> DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN IDEA OF >> DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW TO GET A HANDLE ON THIS AND HOW TO GET A HANDLE ON THIS AND TURN IT AROUND?

TURN IT AROUND?

>> I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT >> I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF THIS WERE NOT SO, BECAUSE IF THIS WERE NOT SO, MAYBE ISN'T IT DEEPLY CULTURAL, MAYBE ISN'T IT DEEPLY CULTURAL, IT IS MYERED IN LESS THAN A IT IS MYERED IN LESS THAN A GENERATION, ALL OF A SUDDEN WHEN GENERATION, ALL OF A SUDDEN WHEN PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN APPALLED PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN APPALLED AT THIS, IT BECOMES THE NORM?

AT THIS, IT BECOMES THE NORM?

THAT IS WHAT'S SCARY BECAUSE IF THAT IS WHAT'S SCARY BECAUSE IF IT'S THAT DEEP AND ALL CLASSES IT'S THAT DEEP AND ALL CLASSES LOOK AT THE RECENT REPORT THAT LOOK AT THE RECENT REPORT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF DARTMOUTH, ONE THE PRESIDENT OF DARTMOUTH, ONE OF AN IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE, FELT OF AN IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE, FELT HE HAD TO GIVE A MAJOR SPEECH HE HAD TO GIVE A MAJOR SPEECH ABOUT JUST THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR ABOUT JUST THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR INVOLVING WOMEN AND INVOLVING INVOLVING WOMEN AND INVOLVING BRAWLING AND INVOLVING DRINKING BRAWLING AND INVOLVING DRINKING AND HOW YOU GOT TO SPEAK OUT, AND HOW YOU GOT TO SPEAK OUT, AND THEY SAID, WELL, WAIT A AND THEY SAID, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, DON'T YOU THINK THAT MINUTE, DON'T YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE DARTMOUTH LOOK LIKE WILL MAKE DARTMOUTH LOOK LIKE IT'S -- HE SAID, NO, BECAUSE IT'S -- HE SAID, NO, BECAUSE THIS IS THROUGHOUT THE SOCIETY, THIS IS THROUGHOUT THE SOCIETY, AND THAT THESE ARE YOUNGSTERS AT AND THAT THESE ARE YOUNGSTERS AT THE UPPER CLASS VERSION OF THE UPPER CLASS VERSION OF SOCIETY.

SOCIETY.

SO THESE ARE NOT THUGS.

SO THESE ARE NOT THUGS.

AND YET THIS THUGGISH BEHAVIOR AND YET THIS THUGGISH BEHAVIOR HAS BECOME CULTURALLY ROOTED, HAS BECOME CULTURALLY ROOTED, AND I THINK IF WE DON'T GET AND I THINK IF WE DON'T GET AHOLD OF IT NOW AND ROOT IT OUT.

AHOLD OF IT NOW AND ROOT IT OUT.

>> BUT HOW DO YOU?

>> BUT HOW DO YOU?

>> FIRST OF ALL, YOU DON'T >> FIRST OF ALL, YOU DON'T GLORIFY IT WHICH I THINK THE GLORIFY IT WHICH I THINK THE MEDIA HAS AING TENDENCY TO DO MEDIA HAS AING TENDENCY TO DO NOT JUST ON VIDEO GAMES BUT WHAT NOT JUST ON VIDEO GAMES BUT WHAT YOU SEE ON TELEVISION AND THE YOU SEE ON TELEVISION AND THE FACT THAT YOUNGER AND YOUNGER FACT THAT YOUNGER AND YOUNGER KIDS ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH SEX KIDS ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH SEX AND THESE DIFFERENT THINGS, I AND THESE DIFFERENT THINGS, I THINK THESE BLURRED LINES, IS THINK THESE BLURRED LINES, IS THIS RIGHT OR IS THIS WRONG?

THIS RIGHT OR IS THIS WRONG?

I THINK INCREASINGLY IF YOU LIVE I THINK INCREASINGLY IF YOU LIVE IN A WORLD IN WHICH IT'S NOT IN A WORLD IN WHICH IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG, CLEAR WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG, YOU START GETTING CONFUSED ABOUT YOU START GETTING CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG, AND WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG, AND YOU'VE GOT KIDS THAT AREN'T ABLE YOU'VE GOT KIDS THAT AREN'T ABLE YET TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE YET TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE THINGS AND THEY'RE NOTE GETTING THINGS AND THEY'RE NOTE GETTING REINFORCED FROM THE CULTURES TO REINFORCED FROM THE CULTURES TO WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING.

WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING.

>> WE NEED TO TELL GIRLS THAT >> WE NEED TO TELL GIRLS THAT DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS STUFF, AND I THINK THE ADULTS IN STUFF, AND I THINK THE ADULTS IN THEIR LIVES, I MEAN, LOOKING AT THEIR LIVES, I MEAN, LOOKING AT THIS STUDY, THE ADULTS IN THEIR THIS STUDY, THE ADULTS IN THEIR LIVES ARE NOT DOING A GOOD LIVES ARE NOT DOING A GOOD ENOUGH JOB OF TELLING THE GIRLS, ENOUGH JOB OF TELLING THE GIRLS, YOU KNOW WHAT?

YOU KNOW WHAT?

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

THIS IS NOT OKAY AND IT'S NOTE THIS IS NOT OKAY AND IT'S NOTE YOUR FAULT.

YOUR FAULT.

THESE GIRLS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THESE GIRLS NEED TO UNDERSTAND IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT AND THAT IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT AND THAT THEY CAN SAY NO AND GET SUPPORT THEY CAN SAY NO AND GET SUPPORT FROM THE ADULTS AROUND THEM.

FROM THE ADULTS AROUND THEM.

>> WHAT ROLE DO MEN PLAY IN >> WHAT ROLE DO MEN PLAY IN TURNING THIS AROUND?

TURNING THIS AROUND?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO SET THE >> I THINK WE HAVE TO SET THE TONE AS A SOCIETY.

TONE AS A SOCIETY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE MILITARY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE MILITARY, FOR EXAMPLE, AND OFTENTIMES THE VICTIMS ARE AND OFTENTIMES THE VICTIMS ARE LOOKED AT AS THE PERPETRATORS OF LOOKED AT AS THE PERPETRATORS OF THIS, SO I THINK WE HAVE TO SET THIS, SO I THINK WE HAVE TO SET THE TONE AND WE HAVE TO THE TONE AND WE HAVE TO ERADICATE BY SAYING YOU ARE THE ERADICATE BY SAYING YOU ARE THE VICTIM AND WE ARE GOING TO DEAL VICTIM AND WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT.

WITH IT.

>> HONEY, I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT >> HONEY, I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT HOW DO YOU DRIVE THAT HOME?

HOW DO YOU DRIVE THAT HOME?

AND HERE'S WHERE I WANT TO FAULT AND HERE'S WHERE I WANT TO FAULT THOSE WHO ARE, QUOTE, IN CHARGE, THOSE WHO ARE, QUOTE, IN CHARGE, REAL AUTHORITY FIGURES, ONE OF REAL AUTHORITY FIGURES, ONE OF THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE THINGS THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT, RAPE ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT, RAPE EVEN ON CAMPUS, IS HOW DIFFICULT EVEN ON CAMPUS, IS HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET COLLEGES TO BE UP IT IS TO GET COLLEGES TO BE UP FRONT ABOUT IT, SAY IT HAPPENED, FRONT ABOUT IT, SAY IT HAPPENED, SAY THESE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE SAY THESE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE TURNED OVER TO THE POLICE AND TURNED OVER TO THE POLICE AND THE REST BECAUSE THEY THINK IT THE REST BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL HARM THEIR REPUTATION.

WILL HARM THEIR REPUTATION.

UNLESS PEOPLE SHOW, AUTHORITY UNLESS PEOPLE SHOW, AUTHORITY FIGURES SHOW THAT THEY ARE FIGURES SHOW THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO TREAT THIS CONDUCT WILLING TO TREAT THIS CONDUCT FOR WHAT IT IS, IT IS NOW SO FOR WHAT IT IS, IT IS NOW SO DEEP IT WILL NOT BE ROOTED OUT.

DEEP IT WILL NOT BE ROOTED OUT.

>> I THINK WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS >> I THINK WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS LEGALLY.

LEGALLY.

THERE USED TO BE MOW SUCH THING THERE USED TO BE MOW SUCH THING AS MARITAL RAPE.

AS MARITAL RAPE.

WE HAVE MADE SUCCESS IN THE WE HAVE MADE SUCCESS IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM IN DEFINING SEXUAL LEGAL SYSTEM IN DEFINING SEXUAL CRIME.

CRIME.

I THINK THIS IS NOT SO MUCH A I THINK THIS IS NOT SO MUCH A NEW FOM PHONE AS IT'SA HOLDOVER NEW FOM PHONE AS IT'SA HOLDOVER FROM AN ERA WHEN WOMEN REALLY FROM AN ERA WHEN WOMEN REALLY FELT COMPLETELY POWERLESS TO DO FELT COMPLETELY POWERLESS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ANYTHING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ASSAULTS, AND I THINK CULTURAL ASSAULTS, AND I THINK CULTURAL WE HAVE TO STAY ON TOP OF THIS WE HAVE TO STAY ON TOP OF THIS AND NOT ALLOW THERE TO BE A NEW AND NOT ALLOW THERE TO BE A NEW GENERATION OF SEXUAL GENERATION OF SEXUAL EXPLOITATION AND JUST SAY NO.

EXPLOITATION AND JUST SAY NO.

WE'VE COME TOO FAR FOR THIS, WE'VE COME TOO FAR FOR THIS, WE'RE NOT PUTTING UP WITH THIS, WE'RE NOT PUTTING UP WITH THIS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE TREATED YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE TREATED THAT WAY.

THAT WAY.

>> I HAVE TO SAY I THINK OUR >> I HAVE TO SAY I THINK OUR CULTURE IS MORE SEXUALIZED THAN CULTURE IS MORE SEXUALIZED THAN IT'S EVER BEEN AND IT SHOULD NOT IT'S EVER BEEN AND IT SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISING THAT THESE THINGS BE SURPRISING THAT THESE THINGS HAPPEN.

HAPPEN.

IT'S PART OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN IT'S PART OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT BUT IT'S ALSO TALKING ABOUT BUT IT'S ALSO SAYING WE NEED TO STOP HAVING SAYING WE NEED TO STOP HAVING SUCH LAX STANDARDS AND STOP SUCH LAX STANDARDS AND STOP SEXUALIZING EVERYBODY AND SEXUALIZING EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING NO MATTER WHAT THEIR EVERYTHING NO MATTER WHAT THEIR AGE.

AGE.

>> I TOTALLY AGREE.

>> I TOTALLY AGREE.

>> PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE PERSONAL >> PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

RESPONSIBILITY.

>> PARDON ME FOR FEELING THAT >> PARDON ME FOR FEELING THAT IT'S KIND OF OUT OF ANYBODY'S IT'S KIND OF OUT OF ANYBODY'S CONTROL WITH THE MEDIA BEING -- CONTROL WITH THE MEDIA BEING -- YOU KNOW, WITH THE MEDIA BEING YOU KNOW, WITH THE MEDIA BEING YOUR COMPUTER LINKING UP TO YOUR COMPUTER LINKING UP TO SOMEBODY ELSE'S COMPUTER HALFWAY SOMEBODY ELSE'S COMPUTER HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD.

AROUND THE WORLD.

HOW CAN YOU CONTROL WHAT IMAGES HOW CAN YOU CONTROL WHAT IMAGES GIRLS ARE WHAT BOYS ARE THINKING GIRLS ARE WHAT BOYS ARE THINKING IS OKAY AND WHAT GIRLS ARE IS OKAY AND WHAT GIRLS ARE THINKING IS OKAY?

THINKING IS OKAY?

>> I THINK THERE'S A >> I THINK THERE'S A DISTINCTION.

DISTINCTION.

YOU LOOK AT EUROPE AND THERE YOU LOOK AT EUROPE AND THERE CULTURES IN WHICH SEX IS NOT -- CULTURES IN WHICH SEX IS NOT -- I THINK AMERICANS ARE STRANGE I THINK AMERICANS ARE STRANGE ABOUT SEX IN THAT WE COMBINE A ABOUT SEX IN THAT WE COMBINE A PURITAN CAL DISAPPROVAL OF PURITAN CAL DISAPPROVAL OF SECONDS WITH THIS EXTREMELY SECONDS WITH THIS EXTREMELY CONSUMER SORT OF CONSUMER SORT OF PORNOGRAPHY-DRIVEN SEXUAL PORNOGRAPHY-DRIVEN SEXUAL CULTURE AND YOU CAN HAVE FRANK CULTURE AND YOU CAN HAVE FRANK DISCUSSIONS ABOUT SEX.

DISCUSSIONS ABOUT SEX.

YOU CAN HAVE A CULTURE IN WHICH YOU CAN HAVE A CULTURE IN WHICH SEX IS NOT SO TABOO WITHOUT SEX IS NOT SO TABOO WITHOUT ABUSE AND RAPE COMING INTO IT.

ABUSE AND RAPE COMING INTO IT.

SO I THINK THAT IT IS ACTUALLY SO I THINK THAT IT IS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO SAY TO GIRLS LIKE POSSIBLE TO SAY TO GIRLS LIKE EVEN THOUGH THERE IS ALL THIS EVEN THOUGH THERE IS ALL THIS STUFF OUT THERE AND THERE IS STUFF OUT THERE AND THERE IS THIS VERY SEXUALIZED CULTURE, THIS VERY SEXUALIZED CULTURE, THAT YOU AS A PERSON DO NOT HAVE THAT YOU AS A PERSON DO NOT HAVE TO ABSORB PHYSICAL ABUSE.

TO ABSORB PHYSICAL ABUSE.

>> THE PEER CULTURE IS FERENCING >> THE PEER CULTURE IS FERENCING THIS, AND THAT IS WHY I THINK THIS, AND THAT IS WHY I THINK IT'S GOTTEN SO BAD THAT PEOPLE IT'S GOTTEN SO BAD THAT PEOPLE THAT THE WHOLE SOCIETY HAS HAD THAT THE WHOLE SOCIETY HAS HAD TO LISTEN TO HAS TO THE TO SAY TO LISTEN TO HAS TO THE TO SAY NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE TO STOP NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE TO STOP THIS BUT WE ARE GOING TO THIS BUT WE ARE GOING TO PENALIZE HOSE THOSE WHO DON'T, PENALIZE HOSE THOSE WHO DON'T, INCLUDING YOUNGSTERS.

INCLUDING YOUNGSTERS.

>> BEHIND THE HEADLINES, “JESUS >> BEHIND THE HEADLINES, “JESUS FEMINIST.” FEMINIST.” CAN THOSE TWO WORDS COEXIST?

CAN THOSE TWO WORDS COEXIST?

IT'S THE TITLE OF A BOOK BY IT'S THE TITLE OF A BOOK BY SARAH BESSEY, WHO INSISTS THOSE SARAH BESSEY, WHO INSISTS THOSE TWO WORDS INTERTWINE BETTER THAN TWO WORDS INTERTWINE BETTER THAN ONE MAY THINK.

>> GROWING UP AS A CHRISTIAN AND >> GROWING UP AS A CHRISTIAN AND IN A LOT OF CHURCHES PEOPLE IN A LOT OF CHURCHES PEOPLE WOULD KIND OF TAKE A STEP BACK WOULD KIND OF TAKE A STEP BACK AND SAY, WHAT COULD YOU DO I AND SAY, WHAT COULD YOU DO I MEAN, YOU'RE A FEMINIST?

MEAN, YOU'RE A FEMINIST?

I THINK USUALLY THEY MEAN WAS I I THINK USUALLY THEY MEAN WAS I THE STEREOTYPE THAT THEY HAD THE STEREOTYPE THAT THEY HAD PERHAPS HEARD AND BEEN USED FOR PERHAPS HEARD AND BEEN USED FOR SO MANY YEARS AND SO THEY WERE SO MANY YEARS AND SO THEY WERE WANTING TO SORT OF I GUESS WANTING TO SORT OF I GUESS ASCERTAIN.

ASCERTAIN.

THEY COULDN'T REALLY ASSOCIATE THEY COULDN'T REALLY ASSOCIATE ME WITH THE TERM AS THEY ME WITH THE TERM AS THEY UNDERSTOOD IT, AND SO I WOULD UNDERSTOOD IT, AND SO I WOULD JUST SORT OF LAUGH AND SAY, JUST SORT OF LAUGH AND SAY, WELL, I'M A JESUS FEMINIST.

WELL, I'M A JESUS FEMINIST.

>> WHILE MANY CHRISTIANS FIND >> WHILE MANY CHRISTIANS FIND THE TERM CONTRADICTORY, SARA THE TERM CONTRADICTORY, SARA BESSEY INSISTS IT'S NOT.

BESSEY INSISTS IT'S NOT.

JESUS, SHE SAID, SUPPORT THE JESUS, SHE SAID, SUPPORT THE SAME THINGS MODERN-DAY FEMINISTS SAME THINGS MODERN-DAY FEMINISTS PROMOTE, EQUALITY.

PROMOTE, EQUALITY.

>> I LOVE HOW HE ENGAGED REQUEST >> I LOVE HOW HE ENGAGED REQUEST WOMEN.

WOMEN.

THERE WASN'T ANY SPECIAL OR THERE WASN'T ANY SPECIAL OR PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BUT PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BUT NEITHER WERE WE EVER THE BUTT OF NEITHER WERE WE EVER THE BUTT OF THE JOKE.

THE JOKE.

WE WERE ENGAGED JUST LIKE ANY WE WERE ENGAGED JUST LIKE ANY OTHER MAN IN THE STORY THAT HE OTHER MAN IN THE STORY THAT HE ENCOUNTERED WITH.

ENCOUNTERED WITH.

THERE WAS NO CONCERNS IF WE WERE THERE WAS NO CONCERNS IF WE WERE TOO FEMININE OR TOO ABLE TO TOO FEMININE OR TOO ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH HIS TEACHINGS FOR ENGAGE WITH HIS TEACHINGS FOR ANYTHING THAT WAS COMING ALONG.

ANYTHING THAT WAS COMING ALONG.

>> HISTORICALLY CERTAIN PASSAGES >> HISTORICALLY CERTAIN PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE HAVE BEEN USED TO IN THE BIBLE HAVE BEEN USED TO DENY WOMEN EQUAL RIGHTS.

DENY WOMEN EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHEN BESSEY STUDIED THEM MORE WHEN BESSEY STUDIED THEM MORE CLOSELY, SHE HAD A DIFFERENT CLOSELY, SHE HAD A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION.

INTERPRETATION.

>> WHEN I BEGAN TO ENGAGE WITH >> WHEN I BEGAN TO ENGAGE WITH THE WHOLE STORY OF SCRIPTURE, THE WHOLE STORY OF SCRIPTURE, WITH THE ENTIRE NARRATIVE OF GOD WITH THE ENTIRE NARRATIVE OF GOD AS HE ENGAGES WITH HIS PEOPLE AS HE ENGAGES WITH HIS PEOPLE AND EVEN WITH THE APOSTLE PAUL AND EVEN WITH THE APOSTLE PAUL WHO WROTE A LOT OF THOSE MORE -- WHO WROTE A LOT OF THOSE MORE -- THOSE PASSAGES THAT ARE BE OFTEN THOSE PASSAGES THAT ARE BE OFTEN USED AGAINST WOMEN, IS THAT THE USED AGAINST WOMEN, IS THAT THE INTERPRETATION THAT I HAD ALWAYS INTERPRETATION THAT I HAD ALWAYS BEEN GIVEN AND THE ANSWER I HAD BEEN GIVEN AND THE ANSWER I HAD ALWAYS BEEN GIVEN WAS ALWAYS BEEN GIVEN WAS ACTUALLY -- DIDN'T LINE UP WITH ACTUALLY -- DIDN'T LINE UP WITH EVERYTHING ELSE, THAT THE WHOLE EVERYTHING ELSE, THAT THE WHOLE STORY OF SCRIPTURE REALLY DOES STORY OF SCRIPTURE REALLY DOES AFFIRM AND ENCOURAGE FULL AFFIRM AND ENCOURAGE FULL EQUALITY FOR WOMEN.

EQUALITY FOR WOMEN.

AND THOSE PASSAGES OFTEN HAVE AND THOSE PASSAGES OFTEN HAVE BEEN MISINTERPRETED OR BEEN MISINTERPRETED OR MISAPPLIED AND SADLY EVEN USED MISAPPLIED AND SADLY EVEN USED AGAINST WOMEN, AND I THINK THAT AGAINST WOMEN, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A REAL TRAGEDY.

THAT'S A REAL TRAGEDY.

>> BESSEY GREW UP IN A CHURCH >> BESSEY GREW UP IN A CHURCH WHERE FEMALE PASTORS WERE THE WHERE FEMALE PASTORS WERE THE NORM.

NORM.

NOW SHE IS PART OF ONE OF MODERN NOW SHE IS PART OF ONE OF MODERN CHRISTIANITY'S BIGGEST DEBATES, CHRISTIANITY'S BIGGEST DEBATES, THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

>> I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE >> I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE HAVING THAT DEBATE, BUT A BIG HAVING THAT DEBATE, BUT A BIG PART OF WHY I WANTED TO WRITE PART OF WHY I WANTED TO WRITE THE BOOK AND THE BIG REASON WHY THE BOOK AND THE BIG REASON WHY I WANTED TO PUT IT OUT THERE IS I WANTED TO PUT IT OUT THERE IS BECAUSE I WANTED TO SHARE WHAT BECAUSE I WANTED TO SHARE WHAT HAPPENED WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HAPPENED WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ANSWERING THOSE QUESTIONS.

ANSWERING THOSE QUESTIONS.

I LOOK AROUND AND I SEE WOMEN I LOOK AROUND AND I SEE WOMEN WHO ARE SERVING ALONGSIDE MEN WHO ARE SERVING ALONGSIDE MEN WITH A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WITH A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WHOLENESS AND JOY, AND IT'S AN WHOLENESS AND JOY, AND IT'S AN EXCITING THING TO SEE.

EXCITING THING TO SEE.

I THINK IT'SA BEAUTIFUL THING TO I THINK IT'SA BEAUTIFUL THING TO SEE AND REDEMTIVE FOR A LOT OF SEE AND REDEMTIVE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

PEOPLE.

>> THOUGH SHE HAS RECEIVED A >> THOUGH SHE HAS RECEIVED A BACKLASH FROM SOME CHRISTIANS BACKLASH FROM SOME CHRISTIANS AND SECULAR FEMINISTS, BESSEY AND SECULAR FEMINISTS, BESSEY SAYS THE RESPONSE TO HER BOOK SAYS THE RESPONSE TO HER BOOK HAS BEEN OVERWHELMINGLY HAS BEEN OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE.

POSITIVE.

>> FOR ME IT REALLY IS A BOOK >> FOR ME IT REALLY IS A BOOK ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN WE'RE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN WE'RE WALKING IN WHOLENESS AND IN WALKING IN WHOLENESS AND IN FREEDOM TOGETHER.

FREEDOM TOGETHER.

SO EVEN THOUGH SOME PEOPLE MAY SO EVEN THOUGH SOME PEOPLE MAY SIGHT AS A BIT PROVOCATIVE, IT SIGHT AS A BIT PROVOCATIVE, IT STILL IS A PROVOCATIVE LOVE STILL IS A PROVOCATIVE LOVE LETTER.

LETTER.

>> LET'S STAY AWAY BECAUSE WE'RE >> LET'S STAY AWAY BECAUSE WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, FROM HOW ALMOST OUT OF TIME, FROM HOW THIS -- HOW SHE PLAYS INTO THE THIS -- HOW SHE PLAYS INTO THE ABORTION ARGUMENT, BUT OTHER ABORTION ARGUMENT, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, WAS JESUS A FEMINIST?

THAN THAT, WAS JESUS A FEMINIST?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK >> YOU KNOW, I THINK CHRISTIANITY HAS DONE MORE FOR CHRISTIANITY HAS DONE MORE FOR WOMEN THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT WE WOMEN THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT WE HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT HUMAN HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY.

HISTORY.

AS WE'RE ON EASTER WEEKEND I AS WE'RE ON EASTER WEEKEND I THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO REMEMBER IT WAS WOMEN WHO FIRST REMEMBER IT WAS WOMEN WHO FIRST SAW JESUS COMING OUT OF THE TOMB SAW JESUS COMING OUT OF THE TOMB AS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.

AS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.

NOT MEN.

NOT MEN.

IT WAS WOMEN WHO SAW HIM FIRST IT WAS WOMEN WHO SAW HIM FIRST AND TOLD THE GOOD NEWS.

AND TOLD THE GOOD NEWS.

>> I'VE NEVER SEEN FEMINISM AS >> I'VE NEVER SEEN FEMINISM AS INCONGRUOUS WITH CHRISTIANITY, INCONGRUOUS WITH CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM OR ANYTHING ELSE.

JUDAISM OR ANYTHING ELSE.

IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE JESUS IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST WOULD HAVE THOUGHT CHRIST WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ANYBODY UNEQUAL TO ANYONE ELSE.

ANYBODY UNEQUAL TO ANYONE ELSE.

BUT I DO THINK SHE SHOWS THAT BUT I DO THINK SHE SHOWS THAT EVERYBODY TAKES HIS VERSION OF EVERYBODY TAKES HIS VERSION OF THE BIBLE AND MAKES IT SUIT HER THE BIBLE AND MAKES IT SUIT HER TASTE.

TASTE.

>> AND THAT'S TRUE, AND IN SOME >> AND THAT'S TRUE, AND IN SOME SENSE DOESN'T THAT MAKE IT KIND SENSE DOESN'T THAT MAKE IT KIND OF MEANINGLESS?

OF MEANINGLESS?

EVERYBODY -- EVERYBODY SAYS, YOU EVERYBODY -- EVERYBODY SAYS, YOU KNOW, OH, NO, ISLAM ISN'T KNOW, OH, NO, ISLAM ISN'T ANTIWOMAN.

ANTIWOMAN.

CHRISTIANITY ISN'T ANTIWOMAN.

CHRISTIANITY ISN'T ANTIWOMAN.

AND YET JITTY CARTER JUST HAD A AND YET JITTY CARTER JUST HAD A BOOK WE TALKED ABOUT A FEW YEARS BOOK WE TALKED ABOUT A FEW YEARS AGO, RELIGION IS THE BIGGEST AGO, RELIGION IS THE BIGGEST OPPRESSOR OF WOMEN THERE IS.

OPPRESSOR OF WOMEN THERE IS.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ORDER >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ORDER NATION OF WOMEN AS SHE TALKED NATION OF WOMEN AS SHE TALKED ABOUT, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT JESUS ABOUT, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT JESUS SAID GO PREACH TO THE WHOLE SAID GO PREACH TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

WORLD.

HE DIDN'T SAY THE MEN GO PREACH HE DIDN'T SAY THE MEN GO PREACH AND THE WOMEN STAY BEHIND.

AND THE WOMEN STAY BEHIND.

HE SAID EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE HE SAID EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE HOLMES HOLY SPIRIT CARDINAL TO HOLMES HOLY SPIRIT CARDINAL TO THE BIBLE.

THE BIBLE.

HE DIDN'T SAY MEN GET THE HOLY HE DIDN'T SAY MEN GET THE HOLY SPIRIT, WOMEN IS THAT IT SPIRIT, WOMEN IS THAT IT KITCHEN.

KITCHEN.

THAT WAS NOT HIS FOCUS AT ALL.

THAT WAS NOT HIS FOCUS AT ALL.

SO I DO THINK THAT FROM THAT SO I DO THINK THAT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, JESUS WAS A PERSPECTIVE, JESUS WAS A FEMINIST.

FEMINIST.

>> I THINK JESUS WAS A FEMINIST >> I THINK JESUS WAS A FEMINIST AND A SOCIALIST AND A COMMUNITY AND A SOCIALIST AND A COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS AND A RADICAL FOR THE ORGANIZERS AND A RADICAL FOR THE POOR.

POOR.

>> THE FACT IS THE PASSAGE OF >> THE FACT IS THE PASSAGE OF CHRIST IS A LONG WAY FROM CHRIST IS A LONG WAY FROM CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY.

CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY.

THERE WAS NO SUPPORT FOR, YOU THERE WAS NO SUPPORT FOR, YOU KNOW, THE MONEYCHANGERS IN THE KNOW, THE MONEYCHANGERS IN THE TEMPLE OR THE HUGE WEALTHY TEMPLE OR THE HUGE WEALTHY INSTITUTION OF RELIGION.

INSTITUTION OF RELIGION.

IT WAS REALLY -- THERE'S THIS IT WAS REALLY -- THERE'S THIS WHOLE MESSAGE OF RADICAL WHOLE MESSAGE OF RADICAL LIBERATION THEOLOGY THAT COMES LIBERATION THEOLOGY THAT COMES DIRECTLY OUT OF JESUS' DIRECTLY OUT OF JESUS' TEACHINGS, AND THERE'S A LOT TO TEACHINGS, AND THERE'S A LOT TO BE DONE WITH THAT.

BE DONE WITH THAT.

WE HAVE A POPE NOW WHO IS WE HAVE A POPE NOW WHO IS TURNING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TURNING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UPSIDES DOWN BECAUSE OF THESE UPSIDES DOWN BECAUSE OF THESE MESSAGE.

MESSAGE.

>> BUT NOT DOING WHAT HE SHOULD >> BUT NOT DOING WHAT HE SHOULD BE DOING FOR WOMEN, AT LATEST BE DOING FOR WOMEN, AT LATEST NOT YET.

NOT YET.

>> SERIOUSLY.

>> SERIOUSLY.

>> YOU LOOK AT CHRISTIANITY AND >> YOU LOOK AT CHRISTIANITY AND WHAT THE WHOLE WORLD WAS PAGAN WHAT THE WHOLE WORLD WAS PAGAN UNTIL CONSTANTINE CAME ALONG IN UNTIL CONSTANTINE CAME ALONG IN 300 A.D. AND CONVERTED TO HAVE 300 A.D. AND CONVERTED TO HAVE BEEN CHRISTIANITY.

BEEN CHRISTIANITY.

EVERYBODY THROUGHOUT TIME, EVERYBODY THROUGHOUT TIME, EVERYBODY HAS HAD A DIFFERENT EVERYBODY HAS HAD A DIFFERENT TAKE, AND SOME OF THOSE TAKES TAKE, AND SOME OF THOSE TAKES WERE PICKED UP AND SOME OF THOSE WERE PICKED UP AND SOME OF THOSE WEREN'T.

WEREN'T.

>> THEY'VE USED RELIGION IN THE >> THEY'VE USED RELIGION IN THE SERVICE OF CONQUEST AND POWER.

SERVICE OF CONQUEST AND POWER.

>> MOCKS.

>> MOCKS.

>> REALLY THAT IS ACTUALLY >> REALLY THAT IS ACTUALLY TOTALLY CONTRADICTORY TO THE TOTALLY CONTRADICTORY TO THE MESSAGE THAT WAS SO GALVANIZING.

MESSAGE THAT WAS SO GALVANIZING.

THESE RELIGIOUS MESSAGES ARE THESE RELIGIOUS MESSAGES ARE RALLY GALVANIZING TO PEOPLE RALLY GALVANIZING TO PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY SPEAK OF JUSTICE BECAUSE THEY SPEAK OF JUSTICE AND THAT'S OPPOSITE OF WHERE THE AND THAT'S OPPOSITE OF WHERE THE CHURCH.

CHURCH.

>> IT'S TOTALLY INEVITABLE, AND >> IT'S TOTALLY INEVITABLE, AND I THINK WE OUGHT TO UNDER THAT, I THINK WE OUGHT TO UNDER THAT, THEYS THAT THESE WONDERFUL THEYS THAT THESE WONDERFUL PASSAGES FROM THE OLD AND PASSAGES FROM THE OLD AND TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT AND TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT AND ISLAM CAN BE ABUSED AND IF WE ISLAM CAN BE ABUSED AND IF WE UNDERSTAND THAT I THINK WE WILL UNDERSTAND THAT I THINK WE WILL BE AT HOME.

BE AT HOME.

>> NOBODY ON THIS EARTH WAS >> NOBODY ON THIS EARTH WAS PERFECT EXCEPT JESUS.

PERFECT EXCEPT JESUS.

IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT PEOPLE IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT PEOPLE HAVE IMPERFECT VIEWS OF SOME OF HAVE IMPERFECT VIEWS OF SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE TAUGHT IN THE THINGS THAT WERE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.

THE BIBLE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.

THE CONTRARY.

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