>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> TODAY, RELATIONS BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS AND STATES ARE BECOMING INCREASINGLY UNCIVILIZED.

THE VALUE OF KEEPING ONE'S WORD IS DISMISSED.

INSTEAD, PEOPLE BOAST OF LIES AND DECEIT.

>> POPE LEO ENDS HIS TRIP TO FRANCE WITH A CALL FOR UNITY.

WE LOOK AT THE MESSAGE HE SENT TO THE HEART OF SECULAR EUROPE.

> >> THEN -- >> THE TRUTH IS HE'S ALWAYS I THINK STRANGER THAN FICTION, BUT IT'S ALSO SOMETIMES COMPLETELY SORT OF INCREDIBLE.

>> AN EXTRAORDINARY TALE OF HUMAN VULNERABILITY SET AGAINST THE APOCALYPTIC THREAT OF COLD WAR NUCLEAR ANNIHILATION.

AUTHOR BEN MACINTYRE JOINS ME TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW BEST-SELLER "REDWOOD. "

> >> AND -- >> I. C. E. SAYS VERY LITTLE ABOUT THEIR OPERATIONS.

SO MUCH OF THIS IS SHIELDED IN SECRECY AND REMAINS OPAQUE.

>> VIOLENT ENCOUNTERS WITH I. C. E. ARE IN THE NEWS AGAIN.

HARI SREENIVASAN LOOKS AT THE LATEST WITH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER TONY PLOHETSKI.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AN ENTHUSIASTIC RECEPTION FOR POPE LEO AS HE WRAPS UP A FOUR-DAY VISIT TO FRANCE.

THE POPE CALLED FOR PEACE AND UNITY WHILE ALSO SPEAKING TO CRITICAL ISSUES WITHIN EUROPE.

CALLING ON RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN NOTINGERS TO SACRIFICE POSITION TO ACHIEVE PEACE, URGING EUROPEANS TO EMBRACE EQUALITY AND THE RULE OF LAW.

AND PRAISING MULTICULTURALISM AT A TIME AND IN A PLACE WHERE FAR-RIGHT POPULISM IS GAINING STRENGTH.

>> Translator: EUROPE HAS FLOURISHED AND PROGRESSED WHEN IT HAS KNOWN HOW TO DRAW UPON THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF ITS PAST AND PRESENT THEM ANEW IN CREATIVE FORMS THANKS TO ENCOUNTERS WITH OTHERS.

TO WELCOME A PERSON MEANS TO INTEGRATE THEM, AS IF THEY WERE A PART OF ONE'S OWN FAMILY, OFFERING THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEVELOP THEIR GIFTS, ABILITIES, AND SENSIBILITIES.

>> IN PARIS, SOME 800,000 PEOPLE THRONGED TO THE CHAMP-ELYSEES TO WELCOME THE POPE.

AND DURING A VISIT TO THE MIRACLE SHRINE DOWN OF LOURDES, HE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MUST ALSO ADMIT ITS OWN FAILINGS AND HEAL, QUOTE, DEEP WOUNDS BEFORE MEETING WITH SEVEN SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE.

THE ONCE STAUNCHLY KATLY, THOUGH ONLY 5% OF THE FRENCH PEOPLE NOW SAY THEY ATTEND CHURCH REGULARLY.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE POPE'S VISIT THERE, DAVID GIBSON, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER ON RELIGION AND CULTURE AT FORDHAM UNIVERSITY, AND FATHER THOMAS REESE WHO IS A SENIOR ANALYST AT THE RELIGIOUS NEWS SERVICE.

WELCOME BOTH YOU HAVE TO THE PROGRAM.

FATHER REESE, LET ME ASK YOU FIRST.

YOU KNOW, UNITY HE CALLED FOR AND PEACE.

THAT'S PRETTY NORMAL STUFF FOR A POPE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT BEING SAID NOW AND IN PARIS, IN FRANCE?

>> WELL, ABSOLUTELY IT IS TRADITIONAL FOR POPES TO BE SUPPORTERS OF UNITY AND PEACE.

THE POPES SINCE THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS AT LEAST HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING MULTILATERALISM, HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING PEACEFUL NEGOTIATIONS, HAVE SUPPORTED DIPLOMACY AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO WAR.

ALL OF THESE THINGS THE POPES HAVE BEEN FOR.

AND AT THIS CRITICAL TIME, OF COURSE, LEO IS SPEAKING OUT ON THESE THINGS WHEN THEY'RE NEEDED MORE THAN EVER BECAUSE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE UKRAINE AND WHAT'S GOING ON WITH DIVISIONS, EVEN WITHIN COUNTRIES IN EUROPE.

>> AND DAVID GIBSON, WE'VE INTERVIEWED YOU QUITE A LOT ABOUT RELIGION, ABOUT CATHOLICISM AND OCCASIONALLY ABOUT THIS POPE.

WHY FRANCE, DO YOU THINK?

GENERALLY, THE BIG TRIPS I THINK ARE RESERVED --PROBABLY I'M WRONG --YOU KNOW, FOR MAYBE THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE THERE WHERE THE FAITH IS GROWING.

AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE IN THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE, AND DEFINITELY NOT IN FRANCE.

>> WELL, THAT'S ACTUALLY THE VERY REASON THAT POPE LEO WANTED TO GO TO FRANCE, WHICH NO POPE HAS REALLY MADE A MAJOR VISIT TO FRANCE IN ABOUT 20 YEARS.

FRANCE, THE ELDEST DAUGHTER OF THE CHURCH THEY USED TO CALL HER.

BUT LEO, REMEMBER, HE'S THE FIRST AMERICAN POPE.

CAN YOU IMAGINE ANY OTHER AMERICAN LEADER GETTING A RECEPTION LIKE THIS IN FRANCE TODAY.

SO THAT'S REMARKABLE.

AND HE, AGAIN, HIS FATHER, HIS FATHER WAS ON THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY, HELPING TO LIBERATE EUROPE FROM NAZISM.

THIS IN MANY WAYS IS PERSONAL FOR HIM AND AS AN AMERICAN AND CERTAINLY AS A POPE TO GO ALSO TO THE HEART OF CHRISTENDOM, REALLY, AND CALL IT BACK TO ITS ROOTS.

AND NOT JUST TO SEE WHAT IT CAN DO FOR EUROPE, BUT WHAT IT CAN DO FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD, WHICH AS YOU SAY IS WHERE CATHOLICISM IS GROWING.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS SUCH A GOOD REMINDER TO KNOW THAT THIS AMERICAN LEADER IS WELCOMED AT A TIME WHEN YOU MIGHT FIND THAT OTHERS AREN'T, TO KNOW THAT HIS FATHER REALLY GAVE HIS LIFE AND HIS YOUTH TO DEFENDING DEMOCRACIES AND THE VALUES OF WHAT WE ALL BELIEVE IN, HUMAN RIGHTS ON THE SHORES OF NORMANDY.

I AM ALSO STRUCK, AND I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH TO RESPOND TO THIS, BY HIS DELIBERATE APPEAL FOR MULTILATERALISM, MULTICULTURALISM.

HE WAS VERY CLEAR IN HIS MESSAGE THAT DON'T GET SEDUCED BY THIS VERY NARROW IDENTITY- BASED POPULISM.

SO LET ME PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

>> Translator: INTERNATIONAL LAW AND MULTILATERALISM EMPHASIZE THE GENUINE EQUALITY OF STATES IN THEIR RELATIONS AND CUTE THE BEST ANTIDOTE FOR THE DESIRE TO DOMINATION WHICH LIES AT THE ROOT OF EVERY CONFLICT.

TODAY RELATIONS BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS AND STATES ARE BECOMING INCREASINGLY UNCIVILIZED.

THE VALUE OF KEEPING ONE'S WORD IS DISMISSED.

INSTEAD, PEOPLE BOAST OF LIES AND DECEIT.

>> SO THAT WAS TODAY, THE LAST DAY OF HIS TRIP.

IT WAS IN THE CITY OF METZ, AND THAT IS THE HOMETOWN OF ROBERT SCHUMANN, WHO WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OF EUROPEAN INTEGRATION AND WHO IS BEING CONSIDERED FOR SAINTHOOD.

SO THAT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT, FATHER REESE.

HE MADE THAT SPEECH IN THAT HOMETOWN FOR THAT POLITICAL ENDEAVOR OF INTEGRATION.

DO YOU THINK IT'S DELIBERATELY POLITICAL?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT WHAT THE POPE IS DOING IS ARTICULATING THE FOUNDATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY, WHICH ARE ABOUT LOVE AND FELLOWSHIP AND PEACE AND JUSTICE AND WORKING TOWARDS THE COMMON GOOD, WHICH IS WHAT ROBERT SCHUMANN DID WITH HIS LIFE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

THIS IS --THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AT THIS TIME WHEN THINGS ARE SO DIVISIVE IN EUROPE BECAUSE OF THE OPPOSITION OF RIGHT-WING PARTIES TO IMMIGRATION.

THE CHURCH IS ON THE SIDE OF THE IMMIGRANTS.

IT USED TO BE THAT WE WOULD THINK OF THE CHURCH AS ALIGNED WITH RIGHT-WING PARTIES.

IT'S NOT ANYMORE.

IT IS ON THE SIDE OF UNITY.

IT'S ON THE SIDE OF ACCEPTANCE.

IT'S ON THE SIDE OF WELCOMING DIFFERENT PEOPLES AND DIFFERENT CULTURES AND THAT WHAT THE POPE IS SAYING THAT THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT HELP EUROPE GROW AS A CULTURE AND AS A CIVILIZATION.

>> THERE WE SAW HIM WITH THE FRENCH PRESIDENT, EMMANUEL MACRON, ON THAT STAGE.

AND I BELIEVE THE ARCHBISHOP.

BUT DAVID GIBSON, IT'S SO INTERESTING WHAT FATHER REESE JUST SAID.

THE POPE IS ON THE SIDE OF IMMIGRATION, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PROBABLY SHOULD BE, BUT OF COURSE IF WE LOOK TO THE AMERICAN CHURCH, IT HAS BEEN A RATHER DIFFERENT ASPECT.

IT HAS BEEN A LOT ABOUT THE CULTURE WARS.

THAT WAS CHALLENGED A LOT BY FIRST POPE FRANCIS AND NOW BY POPE LEO.

AND I WAS STRUCK BY AN ARTICLE YOU JUST RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT THE VALUES OF SOME OF OUR CATHOLIC LEADERS, POLITICAL LEADERS, WHETHER IT'S J. D. VANCE IN THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER IT'S THE CURRENT AND THE NEW PRIME MINISTER HERE, ANDY BURNHAM.

AND WHAT MOTIVES BURNHAM.

IT'S NOT THE CULTURE WARS.

IT'S SOMETHING ELSE MOTIVATED BY HIS CATHOLICISM.

>> YEAH, IT'S ABOUT THE COMMON GOOD.

IT'S ABOUT BUILDING THINGS UP, NOT DIVIDING PEOPLE.

AND, AGAIN, I THINK TO PICK UP ON WHAT THE POPE WAS SAYING IN THAT GREAT CLIP YOU'VE PLAYED, PEOPLE BOASTING, LEADERS AND NATIONS BOASTING OF DECEIT, BREAKING THEIR WORD, HE IS TALKING ABOUT CHARACTER.

HE IS TALKING ABOUT CIVILITY AS MUCH AS HE IS TALKING ABOUT CIVILIZATION.

AND IN MANY RESPECTS, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS AND YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO BREAK DOWN CIVILITY, WHO DEMONSTRATE NO RECOGNIZABLY CHRISTIAN CHARACTER, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT'S AN AUTOMATIC, YOU KNOW, SHOT AT DONALD TRUMP.

WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HEAR IN THAT, I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO THAT, BUT I ALSO THINK PICKING UP ON FATHER REESE'S POINT, HE'S ALSO GOING TO FRANCE AND TO EUROPE WHERE THEY'RE FACING NATIONAL ELECTIONS IN FRANCE AND POLAND, IN ITALY AND IN SPAIN, WHERE THERE IS A RESURGENT RIGHT, JUST AS WE SAW IN THOSE REGIONAL ELECTIONS IN GERMANY RECENTLY.

AND HE REALLY WANTS TO PUT THE VATICAN AND THIS AMERICAN POPE DOWN AS STANDING STRONGLY AGAINST THAT, NOT JUST FOR THE COMMON GOOD, NOT JUST ON BEHALF OF IMMIGRANTS, BUT ON BEHALF OF DEMOCRACY, LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY.

HE EMBRACED AND ENDORSED THAT SLOGAN OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, WHICH YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THOUGHT POSSIBLE A FEW DECADES AGO.

>> AND JUST QUICKLY, BEFORE I TURN TO FATHER REESE, YOU SAID THAT SOMEBODY LIKE ANDY BURNHAM - -AND HE HAS TALKED ABOUT IT --IS MOTIVATED BY THE CONCEPT OF SOCIAL JUSTICE, AND YOU WROTE IN THIS ARTICLE THAT POPE LEO, YOU KNOW, THAT HE IS THIS KIND OF SLOGAN.

POPE LEO BELIEVES IN A HEALTHY CULTURE OF NEGOTIATION THAT LEAVES NO ONE BEHIND.

BUILDING ON WHAT POPE FRANCIS USED TO TALK ABOUT, A CULTURE OF ENCOUNTER.

IN OTHER WORDS, MEETING THE PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.

DO YOU THINK MANY LEADERS, INCLUDING CATHOLIC LEADERS, HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THAT, DAVID?

>> VERY MUCH.

HE'S SEEN SO MANY LEADERS, CATHOLIC LEADERS IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE GOING FOR THIS TRIBALISM, GOING FOR THIS KIND OF BLOOD AND SOIL TYPE OF ETHNONATIONALISM.

AND HE IS PUTTING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FIRMLY ON THE SIDE OF UNIVERSAL RIGHTS, OF OPENNESS, DIALOGUE, AND ENCOUNTER.

>> FATHER REESE, DO YOU THINK THAT TOO MANY LEADERS --AND I MEAN INSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND OUTSIDE -- ARE FORGETTING THAT IDEA OF LEADERSHIP?

WE KNOW THAT TRUST IS COLLAPSING IN SO MANY INSTITUTIONS.

PEOPLE FEEL REALLY ALIENATED BY SO-CALLED LEADERS, WHETHER THEY'RE POLITICAL OR OTHERS.

AND THIS IDEA OF BRINGING THEM BACK THROUGH REAL ENCOUNTER AND MEETING THEM WHERE THEIR NEEDS ARE, DO YOU SEE THAT AS LACKING IN THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY AMONGST CATHOLIC POLITICIANS AND MAYBE EVEN CHURCH LEADERS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT POPE LEO WOULD BE THE OPPOSITE OF THE KIND OF AMERICAN LEADERS THAT ARE PUSHING FOR WHAT'S CALLED CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

THIS VIEW THAT CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF GOVERNMENT AND SHOULD TELL EVERYBODY ELSE WHAT TO DO.

THIS IS NOT WHERE HE COMES FROM.

HE COMES FROM A PLACE OF DIALOGUE, OF CONVERSATION, OF WORKING TOGETHER WITH PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS, WORKING TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD, WORKING FOR PEACE, FOR JUSTICE.

THIS IS WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ABOUT UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF POPE LEO.

AND EARLIER, UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF POPE FRANCIS.

THIS IS THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP WE WANT.

YOU NOTICE THAT THE POPE IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE'S FOR, NOT WHO HE'S AGAINST.

I MEAN, MANY PEOPLE WANT TO TRY AND GET HIM TO TALK AGAINST DONALD TRUMP, AND HE DODGES THAT.

RATHER, HE PREFERS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE'S FOR.

HE'S FOR PEACE.

HE'S FOR JUSTICE.

HE'S FOR RECONCILIATION.

HE IS FOR A CIVILIZATION OF LOVE.

NOT A POSITION WHERE MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, RATHER WHERE ALL NATIONS CAN WORK TOGETHER FOR PEACE.

>> AND DAVID, HE ALSO HAS SPOKEN ABOUT THE THREAT OF AI, AND HE'S REALLY CALLED FOR, YOU KNOW, THE HUMAN LINK TO REMAIN IN THAT.

AND WE KNOW THAT THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

BUT ALSO, ALSO, WE SAW THOSE PICTURES JUST AS YOU WERE ALL TALKING OF A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE COMING UP TO HIM, HUGGING HIM IN FRANCE.

I JUST WANT TO READ SOME OF THESE STATS, WHICH ARE PRETTY INTERESTING.

THERE IS KIND OF A CATHOLIC REVIVAL MAYBE AROUND BUT CERTAINLY IN FRANCE YOUNG PEOPLE BEING BAPTIZED IN GROWING NUMBERS, THERE EVEN AS REGULAR CHURCH ATTENDANCE REMAINS LOW.

IT'S ABOUT 5%.

BUT, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE ARCHDIOCESE OF CHICAGO, HIS HOMETOWN FOUND THAT 34% OF CONVERTS TO CATHOLICISM WERE GEN Z.

35% WERE MILLENNIALS.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A RESURGENCE.

TO WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS?

I THINK THERE IS A REAL SEARCH, ESPECIALLY AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE IN THIS VERY FRAGMENTED WORLD OF ALIENATION WHERE THERE IS THIS CULTURAL DIVISION FROM THE TOP.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR COMMUNITY.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A SENSE OF MEANING.

POPE LEO SPOKE SO POWERFULLY ABOUT MEANING AND LOOKING FOR THE HIGHER GOOD AND THE HIGHER PURCHASE OF ONE'S LIFE.

HE DOES THAT ALL THE TIME.

BUT HE DID IT SO POWERFULLY HERE IN FRANCE.

AND THAT RESONATES WITH YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST.

AND I THINK YOU SEE THAT IN FRANCE.

YOU SEE IT IN ENGLAND.

YOU SEE IT CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO COME BACK TO PLACES THAT WILL WELCOME THEM, NOT DIVIDE THEM.

AND LEO MADE A BIG POINT OF THAT.

HE SAID WE'VE GOT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE COMING INTO THE CHURCH.

WE HAVE TO MAKE THIS A PLACE OF WELCOME FOR EVERYONE.

IT'S VERY INCLUSIVE, NOT EXCLUSIVE.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR.

AND THAT'S REALLY I THINK WHAT IS PART OF POPE LEO'S APPEAL.

LOOK AT --YOU SAW HIM COMING DOWN THE CHAMP-ELYSEES, THE MAIN BOULEVARD OF FRANCE.

800,000 PEOPLE COMING OUT TO LINE THE CHAMP-ELYSEES THERE AND CHEER HIM ON.

THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON.

AND POPE LEO IS TAPPING INTO THAT.

AND I THINK STATESMAN-LIKE IS ALMOST THE WAY TO DESCRIBE HIS VISIT.

AND I THINK HE'S THE PERSON WHO'S FILLING A GAP THAT PEOPLE SEE OUT THERE AND PERHAPS THE CHURCH AND FAITH IS FILLING A GAP THAT PEOPLE FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES.

>> AND YET AS WE SAID, HE IS VERY COGNIZANT THAT THE CHURCH HAS TO REMEMBER AND ATONE FOR ITS OWN FAILINGS, NOTABLY THE CLERICAL SEXUAL ABUSE CATASTROPHE.

HERE IS HOW ONE SURVIVOR --HE MET SEVEN IN FRANCE.

HERE IS WHAT ONE OF THEM TOLD THE PRESS.

>> Translator: HIS DEPTH, HIS LISTENING, IT RECONCILED ME WITH WHAT I EXPERIENCED AT THE TIME.

TEN YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE SPEAKING INTO THE VOID, WHEN WE WERE NOT RECEIVED BY THE POPE, WHEN WE WROTE TO HIM AND HE DID NOT REPLY, I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A CLEAR CHANGE, A MAJOR AWAKENING.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, FATHER REESE, AND OF COURSE MANY OF THE RECENT POPES HAVE PROMISED REFORM AND CHANGE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK POPE LEO CAN DO DIFFERENTLY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN?

>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS THAT BOTH THE CHURCH AND THE WORLD HAVE CHANGED.

THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER THE CHURCH OF OUR GRANDPARENTS OR GREAT GRANDPARENTS.

IT'S NOT WAGGING ITS FINGERS AT PEOPLE.

IT'S COMING AND WALKING.

IT'S EMBRACING PEOPLE OF ALL DIFFERENT KINDS.

WHERE THEY ARE, AND LISTENING TO THEM.

AND TRYING TO BRING THEM TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY.

WHAT WE FIND IN YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IS THAT THEY'RE SEEKING SPIRITUALITY.

THEY'RE SEEKING SOMETHING GREATER THAN THEMSELVES IN THE WORLD IN WHICH THEY LIVE.

AND THEY'RE SEEKING COMMUNITY.

WELL, THIS IS WHAT CHURCHES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT, COMMUNITIES THAT HAD A SPIRITUALITY THAT HELPED PEOPLE CONNECT WITH SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES.

AND I THINK THAT THE COMBINATION OF THE FACT THAT THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED AND THE WORLD HAS CHANGED HAS MADE THIS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO GO BEYOND THE PAST, GO BEYOND THE ANTI-CLERICALISM THAT WAS SO RAMPANT IN FRANCE IN THE PAST, GO BEYOND THE AUTHORITARIANISM THAT WAS SO INGRAINED IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

>> OKAY.

>> SO WE CAN HAVE A RECONCILIATION AND MOVE FORWARD.

>> YEAH.

RECONCILIATION, IT'S AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT WORD.

FATHER THOMAS REESE AND DAVID GIBSON, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING WITH US.

> >> NOW, AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP REJECTED IRAN'S PROPOSAL TO REOPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, FOREIGN MINISTER ABBAS ARAGHCHI SAID THAT HIS COUNTRY IS READY FOR MORE PEACE TALKS, AND HE SAID IT IS ALSO READY TO STAND UP FOR ITS INTERESTS, NO MATTER THE COST.

>> WE ARE READY TO NEGOTIATE AS MUCH AS WE ARE READY TO FACE ANY CHALLENGE.

WE STAND FIRM IN THE FACE OF ANY CHALLENGE, ANY AGGRESSION, SORRY.

WE STAND FIRM IN THE FACE OF ANY AGGRESSION AGAINST US, EVEN IT COMES TO A WAR.

>> IRAN HAS A LONG FRAUGHT HISTORY AS A POSSIBLE TRIP WIRE FOR A DOOMSDAY SCENARIO, AND IN HIS NEW BOOK "REDWOOD," THE BEST-SELLING AUTHOR BEN MACINTYRE UNCOVERS THE UNTOLD STORY OF A RUSSIAN SPY IN TEHRAN WHO BETRAYED THE KREMLIN AT THE HEIGHT OF THE COLD WAR, AND HE MAY HAVE HELPED AVERT A NUCLEAR CONFRONTATION.

I SPOKE WITH MACINTYRE HERE IN LONDON RECENTLY ABOUT A STORY THAT'S STRANGER AND SCARIER IN MANY WAYS THAN FICTION.

BEN MACINTYRE, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, WITH YET ANOTHER THRILL- SEEKER AND A PAGE-TURNER ANY WAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO "REDWOOD. "

ONE DAY IN OCTOBER 1981, A TALL RUSSIAN IN TEHRAN WALKS INTO THE BRITISH EMBASSY.

TAKE IT FROM THERE.

>> THIS IS MAJOR VLADIMIR KOZITKIN OF THE KGB.

HE IS ONE OF THE MOST EXPERIENCED INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS THAT THE SOVIETS HAVE IN TEHRAN.

HE IS RUNNING ALL THEIR ILLEGALS NETWORKS, WHICH ARE THE UNDERCOVER SPIES THAT ARE RUNNING THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND HE WALKED INTO THE BRITISH EMBASSY, ACROSS THE ROAD.

THE BRITISH EMBASSY WAS DIRECTLY ACROSS ROAD FROM THE SOVIET EMBASSY.

>> I GREW UP THERE.

>> OF COURSE.

SO YOU WOULD KNOW THAT.

IT USED TO BE WINSTON CHURCHILL STREET.

>> CORRECT.

>> AND RECENTLY RENAMED BOBBY SANDS STREET AFTER THE IRA HUNGER STRIKER.

HE WALKED IN AND OFFERED HIS SERVICES TO MI-6.

NOW A WALK-IN SPY PARLANCE IS A VERY DANGEROUS QUALITY, BECAUSE SOMEBODY WHO VOLUNTEERS TO SPY MAY BE A -- >> DOUBLE AND TRIPLE.

YEP.

>> MAY BE A PROVOCATION.

INITIALLY MI6 WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS OFFER.

>> AND WHAT WAS THE OFFER?

WHAT WAS HE DOING?

WHAT WAS HIS MAIN JOB IN TEHRAN?

THIS IS RIGHT AFTER, LIKE A YEAR OR SO AFTER THE ISLAM IC REVOLUTION.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS 1981.

THE AYATOLLAH HAS COME TO POWER.

THE ISLAMISTS ARE IN ASCENDANT, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE FULL CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE STILL DIFFERENT FACTIONS FIGHTING, INCLUDING THE COMMUNIST PARTY WHICH WAS VERY POWERFUL STILL, VERY WELL FUNDED, THEY HAD WEAPONS AND SO ON, BUT THEY WERE TOLERATED BY THE ISLAMIC REGIME.

IT'S A TIME OF GREAT FERMENT.

AND THE BRITISH HAVE ONE SPY IN THE COUNTRY BY BRITISH REPRESENTATION IS TINY.

THE AMERICANS HAVE GONE AFTER THE EMBASSY CONFLICT.

ONE OF THE MEN IS IAN M cREADY, WHO IS NORMALLY A CONSOLE.

IN REALITY HE WAS THE ONLY MI6 SPY IN THE COUNTRY.

SO IT FELL TO HIM TO HANDLE KOZITZKIN, THIS VOLUNTEER SPY.

>> AND REMIND OF THE GEOPOLITICAL MOMENT.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP THE BRITISH, THE AMERICANS AT ALL COSTS WANTED TO FEND OFF ANY SOVIET ENCROACHMENT INTO IRAN AND THREATENING THE PERSIAN GULF, WHICH THEY WANTED TO OWN SINCE PETER THE GREAT.

WE GREW UP KNOWING.

THIS.

>> YEAH.

IRAN, AS YOU KNOW, HAD ALWAYS BEEN A KIND OF CENTRAL TO THE GREAT GAME, THE BATTLE BETWEEN CZARIST RUSSIA AND IMPERIALIST BRITAIN TO TRY AND CONTROL THE COUNTRY, CENTRAL ASIA, AND THE OIL FIELDS LATERALLY.

IT HAD BEEN A CRUCIAL BATTLEGROUND OF THE COLD WAR.

AND WHILE THE SHAH WAS IN POWER, THE CIA AND MI6 AND SAVAK, THE BRUTAL POLICE OF THE SHAWIST REGIME, IT WAS ALL GOING GREAT.

THEN THE SHAH TOPPLED AND THE KGB MOVED INTO THE VACUUM.

THEY BEGAN TO BUILD UP POWER IN THE COUNTRY.

AND SECRETLY, THIS IS WHAT HE REVEALED, THEY WERE PLANNING TO SET UP THE COMMUNIST PARTY TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT.

IT WAS A LONG-TERM PLAN.

IT WASN'T A PLAN THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY, BUT THE IDEA WAS AS THE TWO-DAY PARTY, WHICH MEANS THE PARTY OF THE MASSES WAS GOING TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, OUST THE CLERICS, AND THEN THE RED ARMY WOULD COME IN TO SUPPORT THEM.

NOW THIS WAS A LONG-TERM NIGHTMARE FOR WESTERN ANALYSTS BECAUSE HAD THE RED ARMY COME IN AND TAKEN OVER IRAN, HAD THEY GOTTEN CONTROL OF THE WARM WATER PORTS AND THE OIL FIELDS AND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THEY WOULD HAVE WON THE COLD WAR.

SO AMERICA HAD CONTINGENCY PLANS IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH JUST SUCH AN EVENTUALITY.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS OR TROOPS IN THE REGION REALLY TO HOLD BACK AN ADVANCE.

SO THE CONTINGENCY PLAN WAS NUCLEAR.

>> REALLY?

>> YEAH.

THERE WAS ALREADY PLANS IN PLACE.

NOW THESE ARE THE CONTINGENCY PLANS.

THEY WEREN'T NECESSARILY HARD PLANS THAT WERE GOING TO BE PUT INTO EFFECT.

A MAN CALLED BOB "BLOWTORCH" TOOMER, LONG FORGOTTEN BUT IN THE PENTAGON HAD DRAWN UP A SERIES OF RESPONSES, THE LEAST RADICAL OF WHICH IN NUCLEAR TERMS WAS TO SEND SPECIAL FORCES INTO IRAN ARMED WITH MAN-PACKED NUKES, LITERALLY PORTABLE NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT THEY WOULD SET OFF AND BRING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN RANGES IN THE NORTH AND BLOCK THE PASSES SO THAT THE SOVIETS COULDN'T GET IN.

I MEAN, IT WAS A VERY RADICAL MOVE, BUT THAT WAS THE LEAST OF THE NUCLEAR OPTIONS.

THE NEXT WAS THE USE OF TACTICAL NUCLEAR AND IF NECESSARY USING NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO TAKE OUT THE NUCLEAR BASES INSIDE THE SOVIET UNION.

IF THAT HAD HAPPENED, THE SOVIETS WOULD HAVE RESPONDED WITH NUCLEAR FORCE.

SO THIS IS ONE OF THOSE WHAT IFS OF HISTORY, BUT IT WAS ON THE DRAWING BOARD VERY FIRMLY FOR THE KGB.

>> GIVEN THE WAY YOU'RE DESCRIBING THAT MOMENT IN HISTORY AND HOW HUGELY DANGEROUS A MOMENT IT WAS, WITH A VERY --I MEAN, THE ISLAMISTS WERE PRETTY DUG IN, BUT THEY HADN'T FULLY CONSOLIDATED POWER.

THEY HAD, BUT THERE WAS ALSO FIGHTS INTERNALLY.

IT WAS A HUGE BIG DEAL.

AND THAT GUY, WAS HE UP TO THE JOB, THIS REDWOOD?

DID HE --WAS HE INTO IT?

WHY DID HE DEFECT?

>> WELL, HIS REASONS FOR DEFECTING ARE COMPLICATED AND EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, HE WAS THE LINCHPIN OF THIS CONSPIRACY.

SO HE WAS THE KGB OFFICER WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR PASSING OVER THE MONEY AND THE GUNS AND ENCOURAGING THE UNISTS TO PREPARE FOR THIS POTENTIAL COUP.

SO HE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT.

IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY STRESSFUL JOB.

HEAVY WAS FINDING IT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

VLADIMIR KOZITZKIN IS NOT YOUR JAMES BOND SPY.

HE IS 6'4".

HE WAS INCREDIBLY HANDSOME.

HE WAS TOUGH COOKIE.

HE WAS DEPUTY OF THE WHOLE OPERATION IN THE KGB OF THAT REGION.

BUT HE HAD A PROBLEM, AND HE EXPLAINED IT TO HIS CASE OFFICER THE MINUTE THEY GOT TOGETHER.

SO HE AND IAN McREADY.

AND HE SAID I HAVE A PROBLEM, AND I HOPE THE WEST WILL CURE FOR IT FOR HIM.

>> AND THE PROBLEM?

>> THE PROBLEM WAS ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION.

>> YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

>> I PROMISE YOU NOT.

>> THE GREAT GAME DEPENDED ON ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION?

>> IN A SENSE, YES.

THAT WAS HIS MAIN MOTIVATION.

THERE IS AN OLD ACRONYM THAT IS OFTEN DESCRIBED TO USE THE MOTIVATIONS OF SOMEBODY WHO TURNS DOUBLE AGENT.

AND THAT'S MICE.

MONEY, IDEOLOGY, COERCION, AND EGO.

NOW MONEY DIDN'T PLAY A PART.

HE DIDN'T WANT MONEY.

IDEOLOGY DID PLAY A PART.

HE WAS BITTERLY ALIENATED FROM THE SOVIET REGIME.

HE HATED THE JOB HE WAS DOING.

HE DESPISED THE KGB.

SO COERCION AND EGO DIDN'T PLAY A PART OF IT.

HIS MAIN MOTIVATION WAS HE WAS IMPOTENT.

IT WAS DESTROYING HIS MARRIAGE.

HE WAS DESPERATE.

HE LOVED HIS WIFE DEARLY, AND HE WAS TRYING TO SAVE THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

LIKE MANY SOVIET CITIZENS OF THE TIME, HE HAD A KIND OF ALMOST MYSTICAL FAITH IN WESTERN MEDICINE.

HE BELIEVED THAT WESTERN MEDICINE COULD CURE ANYTHING.

AND SO IT WAS A RADICAL EXTREMELY PERILOUS PLAN WHICH WAS HE WAS GOING TO WALK INTO THE BRITISH EMBASSY, AGREE TO SPY FOR HIM FOR A YEAR.

THEY WOULD CURE HIM, THAT WAS THE PLAN, AND THEN HE WOULD DEFECT WITH HIS WIFE GALENA, AND THEY WOULD START A NEW LIFE IN THE WEST.

IT WAS BASED ON THIS ASSUMPTION THAT THE WEST HAD ALREADY INVENTED VIAGRA, WHICH THEY HAD NOT, BECAUSE VIAGRA WOULDN'T BE INVENTED FOR ANOTHER 14 YEARS.

BUT KOZITZKIN DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

THE WHOLE THING HINGES REALLY ON HIS EXPECTATION THAT THE WEST COULD HELP HIM.

>> AND SINCE THEY DIDN'T DELIVER, WHY DID HE KEEP HELPING?

WHAT DID THEY DO, THE WEST?

>> WELL, SO IAN McREADY SAID TO HIM WE WILL DO OUR BEST.

WE WILL TRY TO HELP YOU.

AND IN FAIRNESS TO MI6, THEY DID.

THEY DID WHAT THEY COULD.

THERE IS NO MEDICAL CURE FOR HIM, BUT THEY SENT HIM ADVICE, THEY SENT HIM RED VITAMIN TABLETS TO TRY TO GET A PLACEBO EFFECT GOING ON.

THEY GAVE HIM ADVICE ON LIFESTYLE.

THEY TRIED TO PERSUADE HIM TO STOP DRINKING.

HE WAS A HUGE BOOZER, TO RELAXATION, SLEEP, EVERYTHING THEY KNEW OF THAT MIGHT HELP.

BUT OF COURSE IT DIDN'T WORK.

IT DIDN'T MAKE IT BETTER.

AND WHAT'S MORE, THIS PROBLEM FOR KOZITZKIN WAS CLEARLY STRESS-RELATED.

AND THE STRESS OF BEING A DOUBLE AGENT WAS DOUBLE THAT OF BEING A KGB OFFICER.

SO ACTUALLY THEY WERE MAKING IT WORSE.

>> BUT HE NEVER SAID HEY, YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT BETTER.

WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?

>> HE DIDN'T.

BECAUSE HE WAS SORT OF SOLDIER.

ONCE HE HAD SWAPPED SIDES, THROWN IN HIS LOT WITH THE WEST, HE REALIZED HE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH CHANCE OF BACKING OUT AT THIS POINT, THAT HE WAS RELIANT ON THEM THAT HE REALLY WAS GOING TO DO WHAT HE HAD TO DO.

AND HE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY SPY.

I MEAN, HE WAS ABLE OVER THE COURSE OF NINE MONTHS TO PROVIDE MI6 WITH THE KIND OF INTELLIGENCE THEY HAD NEVER HAD BEFORE.

HOW THE KGB OPERATED, HOW THE ILLEGAL SYSTEM WORKED, EVERY SINGLE UNDERCOVER SPY AND AGENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I MEAN EVERYBODY THAT KOZITZKIN KNEW ABOUT.

McREADY PROVIDED HIM WITH A SPY CAMERA, A MINIATURE CAMERA, AND HE WOULD GO INTO THE SOVIET EMBASSY, INTO THE KGB AND PHOTOGRAPH EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT HE COULD GET HIS HANDS ON.

THOUSANDS OF THEM.

>> IN TEHRAN?

>> IN TEHRAN.

>> SO THIS IS THE SLIGHTLY FARCICAL SIDE OF HIS REASON FOR DOING THIS, BUT IT HAD A DRAMATIC AND PRETTY VIOLENT IMPACT, THE INFORMATION THAT HE WAS GIVING TO THE BRITS AND THE AMERICANS, RIGHT?

WHAT DID THEY DO WITH THAT INFORMATION?

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> WELL, SOME OPERATIONAL INTELLIGENCE IS TOO VALUABLE TO USE.

SO THE BRITS DECIDED THEY COULD NOT SHARE IT WITH AMERICA UNTIL KOZITZKIN WAS OUT.

ONCE THEY GOT HIM OUT, A DECISION WAS MADE JOINTLY WITH THE CIA, WITH BILL CASEY THEN HEAD OF THE CIA TO SHARE THIS INFORMATION WITH THE IRANIANS.

THEY SAW THE PROBLEM STRICTLY THROUGH THE PRISM OF THE COLD WAR.

THIS WAS A WAY OF STOPPING THE NEXT DOMINO FROM FALLING.

BUT THERE WAS ALSO A HOPE I THINK ON CASEY'S PART THAT THIS WOULD BE A WAY TO OPEN A BACK CHANNEL TO IRAN.

ALWAYS THE HOLY GRAIL OF MIDDLE EASTERN POLITICS FOR WASHINGTON.

THIS WOULD BE A WAY, HE HOPED, THAT THEY COULD HAVE A CONVERSATION, THAT THEY COULD BEGIN TO OPEN UP THE ISLAMIST REGIME.

KIZITZKIN FLEW OUT AND MET IN SECRET.

THE IRANIANS SAID THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ACTUALLY, THEY DIDN'T, REALLY.

STONY-FACED, THEY LEFT THE THREE- DAY MEETING WITH ALL THIS EVIDENCE.

THE NAMES OF THE PLOTTERS, THE SAFE HOUSE, THE MONEY STREAMS, THE WEAPONS CACHES, THE CONTACTS WITH THE KGB, EVERYTHING.

WENT BACK TO TEHRAN.

WITHIN THREE MONTHS, SOMETHING LIKE 8,000 COMMUNISTS WERE ROUNDED UP OF WHOM PERHAPS HALF WERE EXECUTED.

IT WAS A TERRIFYING BLOODBATH.

YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER STORIES OF IT FROM YOUR YOUTH.

IT WAS THE MOMENT WHEN THE AYATOLLAH'S REGIME CLAMPED DOWN ON ALL INTERNAL OPPOSITION.

FROM THAT MOMENT ON, FEAR OF FIFTH COLONISTS BECAME A KIND OF CENTRAL MOTIVATING FORCE FOR THE ISLAMIST REGIME.

AND INADVERTENTLY, IT DID STOP THE SOVIETS.

>> YEP.

>> I MEAN, DOZENS, I THINK A DOZEN AND A HALF SOVIET DIPLOMATS WERE KICKED OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

IT CREATED A COMPLETE CHASM BETWEEN MOSCOW AND TEHRAN.

AND IT STYMIED ANY AMBITIONS THAT THE SOVIETS HAD FOR A TAKEOVER OF IRAN.

SO IN ONE SENSE IT WORK VERY EFFECTIVELY.

IN ANOTHER SENSE, IT ACTUALLY EMBOLDENED THE ISLAMIST REGIME.

IT ENDED UP MAKING THE AYATOLLAH STRONGER.

>> FAST FORWARD, AND THERE IS A LOT OF PARALLELS, DIFFERENT DYNAMIC, BUT LOFT PARALLELS.

DO YOU SEE ANY LINE AT ALL BETWEEN THAT TIME AND NOW?

>> THERE IS ALMOST A DIRECT LINE.

MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO IN 1982 AND 1983 FIGURED INSIDE THE ISLAMIC REGIME, PEOPLE LIKE ALI KHAMENEI AND ALI SHAM CARNEY, THEY WERE THEN YOUNG OFFICERS.

IN KHAMENEI'S CASE, HE WAS ALREADY PRESIDENT.

THESE WERE THE PEOPLE PUSHING REALLY HARD TO DESTROY THE COMMUNISTS, AND THEY WENT IN AS HARD AS THEY POSSIBLY COULD.

THOSE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE STILL IN POWER THIS YEAR UNTIL FEBRUARY WHEN THE FIRST ISLY AIR STRIKE TOOK OUT KHAMENEI, SHAM KARNI.

THE SAME FIGURES WHO HAD BEEN YOUNG RADICALS IN THE 1980s WERE STILL THERE.

THEY WERE NOW THE ANCIENT DESPOTS RUNNING THIS AUTOCRACY.

SO THERE IS A DIRECT LINE.

I THINK WHEN YOU SEE THE TERRIBLE CLAMPDOWN ON PROTESTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN IRAN WHEN THE PROTESTS WERE THERE LATE LAST YEAR AND EARLY THIS YEAR, THOSE ARE STRAIGHT OUT OF THE TWO-DAY PLAYBOOK.

THEY ARE THE SAME RESPONSE TO WHAT IS SEEN AS INTERNAL -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> YOU JUST WIPE IT OUT.

>> ARE ANY OF THE CHARACTERS ALIVE?

IS HE STILL ALIVE?

>> VERY MUCH.

SO.

>> REDWOOD IS NOT.

REDWOOD DIED IN 2009.

IAN McREADY, THE CASE MANAGER WHO RAN HIM IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AND A CENTRAL FIGURE IN THIS STORY.

>> AND YOU GOT A LOT OF INFO FROM HIM?

>> I GOT A LOT OF INFO FROM HIM, AND ALL THE OTHER MI6 OFFICERS WHO RAN THIS CASE.

AND THERE IS ALSO KOZITZKIN'S DAUGHTER, THAT GIVES AWAY PART OF THE STORY BECAUSE HE RECOVERS.

>> IT WAS THE LACK OF STRESS AS OPPOSED TO VIAGRA.

>> SO BY THE TIME HE CAME TO BRITAIN, HE'D BEEN IN BRITAIN FOR A FEW MONTHS, HE HAD COMPLETELY RECOVERED REALLY.

>> STAYED WITH HIS WIFE?

>> NO.

HE HAD TO ABANDON HIS RUSSIAN WIFE IN TEHRAN.

>> OH, YES.

HE COULDN'T GET HER OUT.

>> HE COULD NOT GET HER OUT.

AND THAT IS ONE OF THE HEARTBREAKING ASPECTS OF THIS STORY.

HE DID IT IN A WAY FOR LOVE.

HE DID IT TO TRY TO PRESERVE HIS RELATIONSHIP.

BUT HE COULD NOT BRING HER WITH HIM.

THEY BOTH RETAINED THIS KIND OF LIFE- LONG AFFECTION FOR EACH OTHER.

KOZITZKIN REMARRIED.

HE HAD A DAUGHTER.

HE REBUILT HIS LIFE IN THE UK.

HE MADE HIMSELF SOMEONE NEW WITH MI6'S HELP.

HE TOOK ON A NEW NAME, A NEW CAREER.

HE BECAME A VERY SUCCESSFUL ACUPUNCTURISTS IN THE WEST.

IF YOU PUT THAT IN A NOVEL, PEOPLE SAY THAT IS THE MOST PREPOSTEROUS NONSENSE.

YOU CAN'T WRITE THAT.

BUT IT IS TRUE.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM.

>> AND THAT'S WHY THESE STORIES ARE SO AMAZING.

>> THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

TRUTH IS ALWAYS I THINK STRANGER THAN FICTION, BUT IT'S ALSO SOMETIMES COMPLETELY SORT OF INCREDIBLE.

YOU THINK THAT COULDN'T HAPPEN.

I MEAN, ONE LITTLE CODA TO THAT IS ONE OF HIS CLIENTS, ONE OF HIS MAIN PATIENTS AS AN ACUPUNCTURIST WAS ALEC GUINESS, THE ACTOR.

SO AT THE TIME ALEC GUINESS WAS MAKING "SMILEY" THE SECOND MOST FAMOUS FICTIONAL SPY IN BRITISH LITERATURE, AT THE TIME HE WAS MAKING SMILEY HE WAS HAVING NEEDLES STUCK IN HIM BY A FAMOUS RUSSIAN SPY AND ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA.

>> AND REDWOOD BECAUSE OF HIS MASSIVE SIZE AND THE FAMOUS TREES.

>> YES.

HE WAS 6'4".

HE WAS BROAD AS A BULLET.

HE WAS A HUGE, HUGE MAN.

SO REDWOOD WAS THE CODE NAME.

SPIES DO THIS ALL THE TIME THERE IS A CONVENTION IN THE SPY WORLD, IN ALL THE AGENCIES THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE A CODE NAME THAT GIVES AWAY THE STORY, THAT GIVES ANY HINT OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

AND SPICE AROUND THE WORLD VIOLATE THIS RULE ALL THE TIME.

EVERY SPY AGENCY DOES IT.

AND REDWOOD WAS THE PERFECT NAME FOR HIM BECAUSE HE WAS 6'4".

THERE WAS ALSO OF COURSE ANOTHER MEANING TO REDWOOD, WHICH TO THIS DAY MI6 MAINTAINS WAS ACCIDENTAL, BECAUSE OF COURSE IN FACT IT'S PROBABLY A TRIPLE ENTENDRE.

THERE IS RED BECAUSE HE WAS COMMUNIST AND WOOD BECAUSE THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

[ LAUGHTER ] RIGHT.

>> I'M SORRY.

YOU MAY NOT WANT TO PUT THAT IN THERE.

THAT MAY HAVE TO BE DROPPED.

>> MAYBE NOT.

WE'LL LEAVE IT TO OUR VIEWERS' IMAGINATION.

BEN MACINTYRE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> IT'S BEEN A HUGE PLEASURE.

> >> NOW TO THE UNITED STATES AND TEXAS, WHERE PROTESTS IN AWES TOOK TO THE STREETS ON SUNDAY, CALLING FOR FEDERAL IMMIGRATION OFFICERS TO LEAVE THEIR HOME CITY AND STATE AFTER AN AGENT SHOT WILBER PEREZ IN HIS CAR A WEEK AGO.

PEREZ REMAINS IN I. C. E. DETENTION WITH SUPPORTERS CONCERNED ABOUT THE BULLET THAT'S STILL LODGED IN HIS BACK.

TONY PLOHETSKI IS AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR THE "AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN," AND HE SPEAKS NOW TO HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

TONY PLOHETSKI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

TONY, YOU WORK AT THE "AUSTIN AMERICAN- STATESMAN," AND YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING I. C. E. ACTIVITY IN AUSTIN AND OTHER PLACES THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

JUST RECENTLY, WE HAD A FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AGENT SHOOT AND WOUNDED A VENEZUELAN MAN WHO WAS WORKING AS A DOOR --DELIVERY DRIVER.

CAN YOU WALK OUR VIEWERS THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED OR WHAT WE KNOW THAT HAPPENED?

>> AND THE STORY IS STILL COMING TOGETHER IN TERMS OF THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.

BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THIS STARTED ON A SUNDAY AFTERNOON IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN NORTH AUSTIN, AND THE PERSON WAS INITIALLY STOPPED.

HE'S A 28-YEAR-OLD VENEZUELAN, AND HE WAS INITIALLY STOPPED BY I. C. E. AGENTS.

AND WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE IT WAS CAPTURED ON VIDEO FROM AN OFFDUTY AUSTIN POLICE OFFICER WHO HAD A MOUNTED VIDEO CAMERA ON HIS PERSONAL CAR.

HE WAS OUT RUNNING ERRANDS.

AND HE SAW THAT TWO BLACK SUVs HAD STOPPED THIS BLUE CHEVROLET COROLLA AND WERE AT THE DRIVER'S SIDE TALKING TO THIS PERSON THEY WERE PLANNING TO DETAIN.

AT THAT POINT, THE DRIVER OF THE COROLLA LED AUTHORITIES ON A BRIEF CHASE IN NORTH AUSTIN BEFORE ONE OF THE I. C. E. AGENTS USED WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMONLY REFERS TO AS A PIT MANEUVER TO STOP THIS VEHICLE.

THEN AT THAT POINT, FOR REASONS THAT ARE ENTIRELY UNCLEAR AT THIS POINT, THE I. C. E. AGENT OPENED FIRE, SHOT THREE TIMES, APPARENTLY INTO THE CAR, AND WOUNDING THE MAN IN THE BACK.

>> SO WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THERE WAS ANY --AND AGAIN, THIS IS DAYS LATER NOW.

WE STILL DON'T KNOW WAS THERE A WEAPON?

WAS THERE A THREAT?

WAS THERE SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE MOTIVATED THAT AGENT TO SHOOT INTO THE CAR?

>> THAT INFORMATION HAS JUST NOT BEEN MADE AVAILABLE.

AND STRIKINGLY SO, HARI.

I'VE COVERED LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND STATE POLICE IN TEXAS NOW FOR DECADES.

AND SO FOR THE AUTHORITIES TO NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM INTRODUCE A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS INTO THE CONVERSATION TO EXPLAIN WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED.

AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, THAT RAISES MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES HERE.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT WE HAVE ALSO ARE PHOTOGRAPHS AND TESTIMONY THAT SAY THAT THIS BULLET, AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH THE SEAT AND IN TO CLOSE TO THIS PERSON'S SPINE.

AND WHAT DO HIS LAWYERS SAY HAPPENED AFTER THAT ARREST?

>> THIS HAS BEEN TO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS CASE A VERY DISTURBING SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.

WE KNOW THAT LOCAL PARAMEDICS HERE IN AUSTIN TOOK THE MAN.

HIS NAME IS WILBUR RAFAEL GRAZAS PEREZ.

THEY TOOK HIM TO THE LOCAL HOSPITAL AND ACCORDING TO THE ATTORNEY SHE COULD NOT LOCATE HIM FOR SOME HOURS.

IN FACT, WE KNOW THAT THE MAYOR OF AUSTIN PERSONALLY WENT TO THE HOSPITAL TO TRY TO HELP HIS WIFE AND HIS LEGAL COUNSEL LOCATE HIM.

HE REMAINED AT THE HOSPITAL ONLY A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME FOR SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN SHOT.

AT ABOUT 4:30 IN THE AFTERNOON, ABOUT FOUR HOURS AFTER THIS ENCOUNTER UNFOLDED, WE'RE TOLD THAT HE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY BY I. C. E. AGENTS AND THEN TAKEN TO A DETENTION FACILITY ABOUT TWO HOURS SOUTH OF AUSTIN NEAR SAN ANTONIO.

AND ACCORDING TO HIS ATTORNEY, WHO IS A WELL-KNOWN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY HERE IN THE AUSTIN AREA, HE RECEIVED VERY LITTLE MEDICAL TREATMENT, DID NOT RECEIVE AMPLE PAIN MEDICATION.

SHE HAD MADE A NUMBER OF CLAIMS THAT HAVE BEEN ECHOED BY OTHERS INCLUDING CONGRESSMAN GREG QASR, BUT AT THE SAME TIME HOMELAND OFFICIALS REALLY DISPUTE SOME OF THE CLAIMS THEY HAVE MADE WITH REGARD TO HIS CARE BEHIND BARS.

>> THE MAN'S LAWYER, KATE LINCOLN GOLDFINCH SAID "WE NEED THE DASH CAMERA FOOTAGE, BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE FROM I. C. E. AND HAVING THESE BYSTANDER VIDEOS DOES NOT GIVE US A FULL PICTURE.

MY CLIENT HAS SAID HE WAS NOT INTENDING TO FLEE.

HE WAS TRYING TO GET OUT OF TRAFFIC AND OUT OF DANGER. "

MARKWAYNE MULLIN SAYS THIS PERSON IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN WHO HAS NO LEGAL STATUS TO BE HERE AND HAS BEEN GIVEN SOME OF THE BEST MEDICAL CARE HE'S EVER RECEIVED IN HIS LIFE.

NO AMOUNT OF SMEARS AND FALSE NARRATIVES WILL SLOW DOWN I. C. E. FROM DOING ITS JOB BY REMOVING DANGEROUS ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM OUR COMMUNITIES AND MAKING AMERICA SAFE AGAIN.

YOU COVERED BACK IN AUGUST VICTOR MARTINEZ NIETO AND HIS 5-YEAR-OLD SON, LIAM TADEO.

THEY WERE ON THEIR WAY TO SOCCER PRACTICE.

WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT INCIDENT?

>> A 5-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO WAS LIVING IN AUSTIN WITH HIS FATHER, HE WAS SET TO START SCHOOL THE NEXT WEEK, AND I. C. E. AGENTS WHILE ON HIS WAY TO SOCCER PRACTICE ESSENTIALLY ARRESTED THE FATHER AND ALSO TOOK HIM INTO CUSTODY.

THERE WAS SOME DISPUTE ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE 5-YEAR-OLD BOY IN THIS CASE.

WHAT WE ARE TOLD, THOUGH, IS HIS FATHER WANTED TO MAINTAIN CUSTODY OF HIM.

AND SO ULTIMATELY, THEY WERE BOTH DEPORTED TO MEXICO AND REUNITED WITH THE HELP OF THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT WITH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS IN MEXICO.

BUT HARI, THAT STORY AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM IS SO SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT HIGHLIGHTS, AGAIN, FOR PEOPLE IN AUSTIN A VERY LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE CITY JUST HOW DISRUPTIVE AND HOW DISTURBING ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN.

AND THEN WHEN YOU ADD A SHOOTING NOW, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE IN AUSTIN HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT AS THESE ICE OPERATIONS HAVE UNFOLDED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THERE'S BEEN GROWING FEAR, GROWING ANXIETY THAT THAT TYPE OF VIOLENCE COULD COME TO THE STREETS OF AUSTIN AS IT DID ON THAT SUNDAY AFTERNOON.

>> DHS SAYS MARTINEZ NIETO IS A MEXICAN NATIONAL WHO ENTERED THE U. S. ILLEGALLY IN MARCH OF 2022.

I. C. E. ARRESTED IN JUNTO TEXAS AND HE ACCEPTED VOLUNTARY REMOVAL ON FEBRUARY 2026.

HE THEN ILLEGALLY REENTERED THE COUNTRY AT AN UNKNOWN TIME AND PLACE BEFORE THIS MOST RECENT AUGUST 16th ARREST.

THE QUESTION I THINK PARENTS REALLY ARE ASKING IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY THERE FOR THE CHILD TO STAY IN THE UNITED STATES WITH HIS MOM?

AND THERE WAS A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN IN THIS CASE WHO ALSO MADE A STATEMENT WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT THIS WAS A CHOICE MADE UNDER DURESS.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND MANY OF THE DEMOCRATS AND OPPONENTS TO THESE TYPE OF OPERATIONS POINT TO THAT SET OF FACTS AND SAY THAT THESE TYPE OF I. C. E. EFFORTS HAVE DESTROYED FAMILIES.

THEY HAVE BROKEN FAMILIES APART NEEDLESSLY, AND THAT'S WHY THEY POINT TO WHAT THEY CONSIDER ARE THESE EXTREMELY HEAVY-HANDED TACTICS THAT THEY SAY ARE NOT GOOD FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND IN FACT ERODE CONFIDENCE IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> THERE IS A THIRD CASE I WANT TO ASK ABOUT BACK IN JULY WHERE I. C. E. AGENTS FATALLY SHOT A MAN NAMED LORENZO SALGADO A NAMED LORENZO SALGADO RAJARAJO.

HE LIVED IN THE U. S. FOR 25 YEARS, RAN A CONSTRUCTION COMPANY.

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> THAT IS A CASE THAT HAS ALSO BEEN HEAVILY FOLLOW AND HEAVILY SCRUTINIZED.

IN THAT CASE, AUTHORITIES ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE PERSON WHO WAS SHOT WAS NOT THE INTENDED TARGET FOR I. C. E. ACTIVITY.

IT HAS BEEN VERY LITIGATED IN THE PUBLIC SPACE ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED, WHETHER OR NOT THE DRIVER -- THIS INVOLVED A VAN --WHETHER OR NOT THAT DRIVER DID SOMETHING THAT PLACED HIMSELF AT RISK FOR GUNFIRE FROM I. C. E. AGENTS, YET AT THE SAME TIME, OTHER WITNESSES AND FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE MAN SAY THAT THAT IS JUST IMPOSSIBLE, THAT THIS WAS AN UNNECESSARY ACT OF VIOLENCE.

AND WHAT WE KNOW IS THE LOCAL DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN HARRIS COUNTY IN HOUSTON HAS VOWED AN INVESTIGATION AND VOWED TO TAKE THIS CASE TO A GRAND JURY TO SEEK POSSIBLE CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THE I. C. E. AGENT WHO OPENED FIRE, CRIMINAL CHARGES POSSIBLY INCLUDING MURDER CHARGES.

I DO THINK THAT THAT REALLY DOES OPEN THE CONVERSATION TOO AND IT'S NOW UNFOLDING HERE IN AUSTIN ABOUT THE ROLE OF LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE ROLE OF LOCAL PROSECUTORS IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT TIME IN HOUSTON THERE WAS A SIMILAR SHOOTING IN MAINE.

AND AFTER THAT, DHS TOLD I. C. E. TO PAUSE MOST VEHICLE STOPS.

AND THE REASON THAT COMES BACK INTO MEMORY IS THAT THE PRESIDENT OVERTURNED THAT PAUSE AT THE TIME SAYING I. C. E. , QUOTE, CANNOT GIVE UP ONE OF I. C. E.

'S MOST IMPORTANT AND EFFECTIVE CRIME FIGHTING TOOLS, THE TRAFFIC STOP.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ON THE GROUND TODAY?

BECAUSE AT DIFFERENT POINTS, I. C. E. HAS SAID NOT ONLY ARE THEY GOING TO PAUSE THESE TRAFFIC STOPS, THEY'RE GOING GIVE BODY CAMERAS TO EVERYBODY, AND IN THE CASE, THE FIRST CASE THAT WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT IN AUSTIN, SHOULD THERE BE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE FROM ANYBODY THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THIS STOP?

>> WELL, AND TO YOUR POINT, THE INCIDENT IN AUSTIN UNDERSCORES AND HIGHLIGHTS THAT THOSE TYPES OF TRAFFIC STOPS ARE EXACTLY CONTINUING.

AND WHAT WE'RE TOLD IS THAT THE I. C. E. AGENT A SUPERVISOR WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THAT INCIDENT VERY MUCH TARGETED THE MAN WHO THEY STOPPED.

WE'RE TOLD THAT THEY WERE USING SOME SORT OF POTENTIAL LICENSE PLATE READER TO CONFIRM THE IDENTITY OF THE CAR.

AND, AGAIN, LOOKING AT THE VIDEO THAT WAS TAKEN BY THE OFFDUTY LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY WERE CONDUCTING A TRAFFIC STOP.

HAD YOU BEEN PASSING THAT AND NOT KNOWN THAT IT WAS I. C. E. , YOU WOULD SIMPLY HAVE BELIEVED THAT SOMEONE WAS ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD FOR EXAMPLE RECEIVING A SPEEDING TICKET.

THAT APPEARED TO BE HOW THIS LOOKED.

SO WE KNOW THAT THOSE TYPES OF TRAFFIC STOPS ARE VERY MUCH CONTINUING AS PART OF THESE I. C. E. OPERATIONS.

WITH REGARD TO THE BODY CAMERA VIDEO, WE ARE TOLD, AND FOR REASONS THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN FULLY EXPLAINED, BUT THE PRELIMINARY INFORMATION IS THAT THERE IS NO BODY CAMERA VIDEO IN THIS INCIDENT.

THERE IS SOME DEGREE OF BYSTANDER VIDEO, THOUGH WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, WHAT HAS BEEN PUBLICLY RELEASED IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR, AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO KNOW THAT LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT QUICKLY ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, AND THERE IS SOME VIDEO WITH REGARD TO THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE SHOOTING.

BUT, AGAIN, WHAT EXACTLY TRANSPIRED IN THOSE MOMENTS OF THE SHOOTING ARE A BIG OPEN QUESTION DAYS LATER.

>> THERE IS OBVIOUSLY THE FEDERAL, THE DHS AND THE I. C. E. AUTHORITIES.

THERE IS ACTUALLY A STATE LAYER OF POLICE IN TEXAS, AND OF COURSE THERE IS THE LOCAL POLICE.

ARE THEY ALL COOPERATING WITH I. C. E. IN TRYING TO MAKE THESE STOPS?

ARE THE CITIES, DO THEY HAVE KIND OF DIFFERENT PRIORITIES?

HOW DO THEY FEEL ABOUT THIS STARTING TO HAPPEN ON THEIR STREETS?

>> I CAN SPEAK VERY SPECIFICALLY TO THAT IN THE CITY WHERE I LIVE, WHICH IS AUSTIN.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THE STATE POLICING AGENCY, THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, WHICH IS OF COURSE ULTIMATELY RUN BY THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OF TEXAS, GREG ABBOTT, HAS BEEN VERY INVOLVED IN COLLABORATING AND PARTNERING WITH I. C. E. MANY OF THE HIGHER PROFILE ICE OPERATIONS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN AUSTIN AND IN CENTRAL TEXAS HAVE INCLUDED THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY.

SO THEIR COLLABORATION, THEIR COOPERATION IS STRONG.

AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT WHEN THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT WAS UNFOLDING, THAT I. C. E. AGENTS ACTUALLY SUMMONED THE ASSISTANCE OF THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY.

THAT STANDS IN STARK CONTRAST TO HOW LOCAL POLICE IN AUSTIN HAVE HANDLED THIS.

WHAT LOCAL POLICE HAVE SAID IS THEY IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ARE ENGAGED IN WORKING WITH I. C. E. AND ENFORCING ANY SORT OF IMMIGRATION LAW THAT THE WORK OF THE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT IS TO RESPOND TO EMERGENCIES IN THE CITY AND TO DEAL WITH AND RESPOND TO LOCAL INCIDENTS AS A MUNICIPAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY WOULD.

>> YOU KNOW, TEXAS HAS AN ESTIMATED TWO MILLION OR SO UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

SO WHEN THESE DIFFERENT RAIDS AND ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES ARE TAKING PLACE IN COMMUNITIES IN TEXAS, WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE STATE UNDERSTAND?

>> THAT THESE OPERATIONS WE KNOW ARE CONTINUING, THAT THEY ARE CONTINUING AT DIFFERENT SCALES, YET AT THE SAME TIME, IN TERMS OF WHAT EXACTLY IS HAPPENING, I DO WANT TO SAY THAT THAT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO PINPOINT AND TO FOLLOW OVER THESE MANY MONTHS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

I. C. E. SAYS VERY LITTLE ABOUT THEIR EFFORTS, THEIR OPERATIONS.

SO MUCH OF THIS IS SHIELDED IN SECRECY AND REMAINS OPAQUE.

AND AGAIN, TO THAT END, WE'RE SEEING THAT EVEN PLAY OUT IN THIS SHOOTING THAT OCCURRED IN AUSTIN.

HERE WE ARE DAYS LATER AND I. C. E. OFFICIALS HAVE RELEASED VERY SCANT INFORMATION.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THE NAME OF THE I. C. E. AGENT WHO WAS INVOLVED.

AND THAT IS JUXTAPOSED WITH THE FACT THAT A LOCAL MUNICIPAL POLICE OFFICER WERE INVOLVED IN AN INCIDENT LIKE THAT, WE WOULD KNOW PRETTY QUICKLY WHO THAT --WHO THAT OFFICER OR AGENT WAS, THEIR HISTORY WITH THE DEPARTMENT.

SO THERE CONTINUES TO BE SO MUCH OF THIS THAT IS SHIELDED FROM PUBLIC VIEW AND IS OPERATING IN THIS VERY HIDDEN WAY.

>> ARE PEOPLE IN TEXAS SURPRISED THAT IT'S HAPPENING IN TEXAS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A STAUNCHLY REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR WHO HAS BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AT DIFFERENT TIMES?

I MEAN, WHEN THEY SEE THIS HAPPENING PERHAPS IN WISCONSIN OR NEW YORK CITY, THEY SAY MAYBE I. C. E. IS GOING AFTER DEEPLY BLUE STATES AND BLUE CITIES.

>> THERE HAS ABSOLUTELY BEEN THAT THOUGHT, THAT BECAUSE TEXAS HAS AT LEAST TRADITIONALLY BEEN IS DEEPLY RED STATE THAT PERHAPS FEDERAL IMMIGRATION EFFORTS WOULD NOT BE TARGETED, AT LEAST IN THE SAME WAY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN IN OTHER CITIES, PARTICULARLY BLUE CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND ALSO AT THE SAME TIME THAT THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS VOWED TO WORK COLLABORATIVELY AND COOPERATIVELY WITH I. C. E. IN THESE OPERATIONS THAT PERHAPS THE LEVEL OF AGGRESSION THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN OTHER CITIES WOULD NOT PLAY OUT.

THERE HAS ABSOLUTELY BEEN THAT THOUGHT.

>> I ALSO WONDER, COULD THERE BE ANY POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

YOU HAVE A VERY TIGHT SENATE RACE THAT'S HAPPENING.

AND IN THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, YOU SAW NUMBERS WHERE A LARGE NUMBER OF HISPANIC VOTERS WENT FOR THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> I THINK IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THIS COULD BE YET ANOTHER DATA POINT FOR TEXAS VOTERS, MANY OF WHOM, TO YOUR POINT, ARE HISPANIC AND VOTED WITH THE REPUBLICANS IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE TWO YEARS AGO.

BUT WHAT MANY OF THOSE HISPANIC VOTERS TELL ME IS THAT THEY DID NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND OR APPRECIATE THE LEVEL OF ENFORCEMENT AND THE TYPES OF PEOPLE THAT IMMIGRATION AGENTS WOULD BE GOING AFTER AS PART OF THESE SWEEPS.

AND SO IN THAT WAY, MANY OF THEM ALREADY WERE STARTING TO TURN AWAY FROM POSSIBLY VOTING FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN THE UPCOMING MIDTERM.

BUT THEN WHEN YOU ADD ALL OF THE MYSTERY TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE SHOOTING AND THE SHOOTING ITSELF, THEY LOOK AT THIS SITUATION AND SAY THAT THE PERSON, THE VICTIM OF THIS SHOOTING WAS --DID NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL HISTORY, MUCH LESS A VIOLENT CRIMINAL HISTORY, AND THAT THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY VOTED FOR.

AND THEY DO BELIEVE THAT THIS TYPE OF ENFORCEMENT EFFORT DOES NEED TO BE REVERSED.

>> INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR THE "AUSTIN AMERICAN- STATESMAN" TONY PLOHETSKI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY, A BIG CAT IS MAKING A BIG COMEBACK.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 170 YEARS, LEOPARDS ARE ROAMING SOUTH AFRICA'S WEST COAST.

SEVEN OF THEM, INCLUDING TWO CUBS WERE SPOTTED THERE WALKING THROUGH A LANDSCAPE THAT HAS GREATLY TRANSFORMED SINCE THEY WERE LAST SEEN THERE NEARLY TWO CENTURIES AGO.

CONSERVATIONISTS ARE CALLING THIS A LANDMARK EVENT.

WE LOVE THAT.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.